Preppers to be treated as terrorists

Started by WA4STO, October 26, 2012, 11:36:20 am

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gil

Quotethat the state cannot have an "official" religion


Thanks Skip, my bad. It's been a while since I read it, and I need to brush up. In all practicality, it comes to the same result.. It is my opinion that mixing them up isn't good practice. I am an admirer of the constitution. It is the background image of my laptop on which I am typing now. I will check out the Federalist Papers, as I haven't read them yet.

Welcome on the forum and have a great week-end  :)

Gil.

KC9TNH

Quote from: skip67 on November 01, 2012, 05:59:58 pm
Gil, I have learned a lot about radio here, my last radio experience was in the army, many years ago. However, I must tell you, that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Here is what it says.
AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
. That's all it says about religion, that the state cannot have an "official" religion. The theory of separation of church and state came from a 1948, 5-4, Supreme court decision. If you have time I would suggest reading the Federalist Papers, to get an idea of what the founding fathers had in mind

Skip
Xlnt post, and I would second that recommendation to a read of the Federalist papers or a collection of selected ones. Religion, freedom of, not freedom from (being exposed to it). Many (most nowadays) will be shocked to see Hamilton advocating against what became the Bill of Rights because he was worried that, simply by listing things which shouldn't need listing, someone would want to come along and muck with them.
Hmm. He looks pretty smart now.

Anyway, yep, solid recommendation. The individual letters aren't that long once you get over 18th century prose style - think of a little civics-based mini-series each night before bed. (There are several which are good cures for insomnia, I'll grant that.)
;)

raybiker73

I'll agree with a read of the Federalist Papers, and I'd add a bit more. Start with Thomas Paine's "Common Sense." A better argument in favor of personal liberty would be hard to find. Add to that "The American Revolution" by Robert Sobel, which not only gives a good eye-in-the-sky view of the war itself, but also explores the motives of those on both sides. Follow up with "Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation" by Joseph J. Ellis, and if you want to go farther back, read the works of contractarians like Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau. There is a vast library of insight into the minds of the men who built this nation, but the majority of the American population is willfully ignorant, neither wanting nor caring to know. These books should ALL be on everybody's prepper bookshelf.

Another one that's really good (I just finished reading it) is "Forty Ways to Look at Winston Churchill," by Gretchen Rubin. A fascinating look at a fascinating life, and a good way to learn about the only World War II leader on either side who favored individual liberty and ruggedness over total government control.

gil

Thanks Ray, that gives me a reading plan!
Gil.

White Tiger

In reality - the education in this country has effectively changed history in order to support the status quo...but a real reading of American history finds that the church was extremely foundational. We have a secular government - but it was ALWAYS intended to be a government of principled people of faith. Many of the conclusions of government come from the reformation - two massive revivals waves swept the country prior to the revolution - and these set in mind the concepts of self-reliance, self-governance, small government was a way of life in the colonies. When big government came here, it came first for the guns....but it also focused on "the black regiment" preachers who informed their congregations of personal responsibilities, but also that railed against tyranny. The Britts didn't like our guns, or our religion and set laws in place addressing assembly, what could be said in an assembly, and gun ownership.

The media, and our educators over the past 100 years have substituted the aims and conclusions of the French Revolution, for those of the ACTUAL American Revolution

We wanted government out of our church, the French wanted the church out of it's government AND even set about about ridding society of all religion.

So, the separation of Church and State came from a letter - the 1st Ammendment isn't JUST about the press...as a matter of fact...the FIRST item discussed by a new governing in America - dealt with keeping the governments greedy influence out of the church. As England's Political head was also the head of the state-run religion!

This topic specifically deals with FEDERAL ESTABLISHMENT of religion...many states had official denominations (i.e., Maryland was Catholic). It didn't mean people were forced to attend specific churches - it meant that the populations of voters specifically chose this for their states.

Your statement regarding keeping government out of our business - is exactly what the whole "freedom" thing was about...taxation of those who had wealth, to drain economic power and then the government would use that confiscated power to support people who agreed with them. In this way the government ruined its enemies, while buying votes from those it supported with "other people's money".

Fortunately for us - the idea of revolution is built into our electoral process.
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

White Tiger

When the government - as this one has - redefines the primary threat on this country to be "domestic terrorists" and redefines the "terrorist profile" to have the following characteristics: former military, carry a copy if the US Constitution in their wallets, buys  bulk food, ammo, weapons, etc., with cash - and then asks shop owners to report this type of activity to Homeland Security....

Well, you just identified most of the posters on this board...and why the government has become so interested in the blogosphere (that's near the ionosphere, right?)...

I'd say: "dixnay on the iscussion-ne" ...but it seems a bit late for that...
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

raybiker73

Quote from: White Tiger on November 02, 2012, 05:52:42 pm
Fortunately for us - the idea of revolution is built into our electoral process.


Since it's Election Day and I've spent the whole day playing Halo 4 on my XBox rather than watching election news, I'm going to put on my historian helmet and go long with this one.

Your intention is correct, but the tense is wrong. The idea of revolution was built into our electoral process. The founders of this nation were wise enough to know that, given time, any government will become corrupt and damaging to the rights of individual citizens. Like Thomas Jefferson famously said, ?A little revolution now and then is a good thing.? That revolutionary ideal, however, has been excised from the process a spoonful at a time over the past 150 years or so, sometimes by accident and sometimes by design.

You can trace the root of it to the secession movement. Not the one in 1860, though, but the original secession movement, in 1814. Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut and Rhode Island sent delegates to what they called the Hartford Convention to begin the process of seceding from the Union. It wasn?t a matter of states rights, though, but quite the opposite: it was a bunch of Federalists. They wanted a separate peace with England to end the War of 1812, and to escape what they believed was political bullying by powerful southern states, particularly Virginia. To make a long story short, it didn?t work out for them, although nobody north or south questioned their right to secede. Their movement having failed, the political attitude of New England over the next 50 years changed to, ?If we can?t get out, we?ll make sure we?re running it from within.?

Fast forward to 1860. When the various southern states seceded from the Union, almost nobody in the population questioned that right. Newspapers in all the northern states, while lamenting the dissolution of the union, believed that the southerners were within their rights to do as they chose.  Those in power in Washington, however, particularly Lincoln, saw their opportunity. I won?t go into the weeds too far talking about the Civil War - if you want that, read MacPherson?s ?Battle Cry of Freedom? - and don?t get me wrong, I?m a good Yankee and reenacted in the blue suit for years. But what the federal government did beyond the abolition of slavery was nothing more than a massive power grab.  Suffice it to say that they managed to slowly and quietly change the narrative, and made it a war to preserve the Union (and by extension the federal government).  You can see it in the speeches and letters of the day. Prior to the events of the 1860?s, the nation was often (not always) referred to in the plural, with people discussing matters in ?these United States,? implying a collection of voluntarily aligned but sovereign entities. During the war, and ever since, you see the nation referred to only in the singular, with people discussing matters in ?the United States.? After the war, the 14th Amendment solidified the view that, concerning the Union, once you?re in, you?re in and that?s that. Rather than individual states being party by agreement to an agreed-upon authority, the states became little more than client states to the federal government.

When the 17th Amendment was ratified in 1913, which took the appointment of U.S. senators away from the state governments and handed it over to popular election, the last representative power of individual states in Washington was dead. The House was intended by the founders to represent the people, and the Senate to represent the states. The 17th Amendment essentially abolished the original function of the Senate and replaced it with a second and differently-apportioned House.

American history since then has been little more than a series of events that moved to centralize power in Washington and move it away from the state capitals. If you want to talk about ?welfare,? the biggest recipients of it are the 50 individual states, who have been maneuvered into a position where without federal monies, they?re sunk. ?So, your state doesn?t want to go along with the 55MPH speed limit? Well, we?ll just withhold all your federal highway funds,? is a particularly extortionate example. The states are now wholly and completely dependent on the central government for their continued existence. Unfortunately, it worked so well on the states, they eventually decided to go ahead and do the same thing to the people as well. And it is, by and large, working out that way.

So yes, the idea of revolution was built into our electoral process, but it was bred out of the beast generations ago. Turn on the TV and you?ll see the proof.

I?ll get off my soapbox and go back to my video games now. :-)

gil

Quoteread MacPherson?s ?Battle Cry of Freedom?


I always love a good book suggestion, thanks!

Gil.

White Tiger

November 07, 2012, 03:23:46 am #23 Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 03:26:52 am by White Tiger
It isn't often I find someone that teaches me something about the American history, and especially about the Civil War, as I fancy myself a bit of a self-taught "buff". However, your concise and precise description allowed me to connect some dots I've been pondering for sometime. I no longer see Lincoln as the "savior of our union" - but something more akin to Bismark's ilk - which would be developing more formalized ideas - we started calling progressivism - just a bit later.

You could argue that had Lincoln lived, his plan for southern reconciliation might have taken the nation in a different direction...but the fact that everything changed because of the war...which he had everything to do with...cannot be overlooked.

A friend of mine locally refers to Lincoln as the "first fascist"...I snickered when I first heard it, but it started me thinking...and as I said, your excellent post kinda tied it (me?) up in knots...

With a pretty bow.

Wow.
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

raybiker73

Well, remember that Lincoln really implemented what could be called the first Patriot Act: suspension of habeas corpus, seizure of personal property of those who opposed the government, indefinite detention without charge or trial, etc. I don't think he was a fundamentally bad guy, and he thought what he was doing would make the nation stronger and not get out of hand. But, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

raybiker73

Quote from: gil on November 07, 2012, 03:17:43 am
Quoteread MacPherson?s ?Battle Cry of Freedom?


I always love a good book suggestion, thanks!

Gil.


Battle Cry of Freedom is the best single-volume history of the American Civil War that has ever been written. Even though it's only one-third the size, it's every bit as good as Shelby Foote's 3-volume Civil War series, if not as detailed in the minutiae of the thing. I very, very highly recommend it.

White Tiger

November 07, 2012, 09:58:58 am #26 Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 10:18:08 am by White Tiger
I like MacPherson's writing - but I have NOT read "Battle Cry" so I am going to download it to my Kindle ($9.99) - thanks!

Most of us were introduced to Shelby Foote through Ken Burns documentary - but I didn't read his heavily footnoted volumes...because it was so HUGE!

Thanks!
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

KC9TNH

November 07, 2012, 02:43:43 pm #27 Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 05:45:30 pm by KC9TNH
Don't worry about the buffoons in Hollywood making a show about the biggest tinfoil ball on the block. Most of those things feature people we darn sure wouldn't bring home to dinner. As had been quipped to me about the "state of things", we were either taking the long, windy path to the ambush, or we were headed straight down the trail. America, in my view, has now chosen the latter. Alrighty then!

The fact is, under current (and now renewed) doctrine in DC certain segments lend themselves to being marginalized.  It started with the DHS' public statement that veterans trained in skill at arms scared the bejeebers out of them enough to be included as a domestic threat in their annual open-source threat assessment. ("Please let slip the dogs of war, but we really don't feel comfortable when they come home.")

It went to writing domestic insurrection scenarios (and the successful put-down of same) using "Tea Partiers" who were already being demonized. That one got out in the open and the hue & cry resulted in them now literally re-writing their domestic violence scenarios to involve - no kidding - zombies. So it's, uh, theoretical, ok?  Doesn't everyone want to see an up-armored tactical team take down some zombies? (Hint:  I'm old school - FIRE, it's the only way, trust me on that.)
::)

Most of us are in one or more of their categories headed "Despised" if nothing else because of the virtue (to us) of trying to be self-sufficient because the less we need them the less they own. Some of us are probably in a bunch of categories (I probably have a file of my own at this point, but I'm in some pretty good company.) It is in their dicta to do that, it lets them play one against the other, all at a level below them, 'them' being far wiser and above all that.

Just keep doing what you need to do, with resolve, learning, practicing, and with cross-training of those close to you.
Let me say that again:
Just keep doing what you need to do, with resolve, learning, practicing, and with cross-training of those close to you.

Happy trails, scenic or otherwise.
8)

White Tiger

Well if we're hell bent for leather...why not just double down?

I much prefer we have the courage of our convictions - I don't mind someone saying they're fascist or socialist - but I have a MAJOR problem when you buy voters WITH my money - taking credit for what I earned AND taking credit for giving it away (to the right people).

I despise employing the definition, while running from the word.

Doesn't matter as we're heading to the financial cliff with our foot firmly on the gas pedal....anyway.

yay.

I am glad I began to prepare for the worst two years ago - I think Im going to need it.

...even though I still don't feel it's enough - it's far better than the position I was in.

And Im looking for a "retreat" out west - Hey Luck, how's Nebraska this time of year?
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

raybiker73

Quote from: White Tiger on November 07, 2012, 04:21:50 pm
Well if we're hell bent for leather...why not just double down?


Doesn't matter as we're heading to the financial cliff with our foot firmly on the gas pedal....anyway.


I am glad I began to prepare for the worst two years ago - I think Im going to need it.



All talk of domestic terrorist classifications aside (because it doesn't do anybody any good either way), this raises a good question. It could be pretty easily argued that, no matter who won the election, we're headed for economic hard times. Even if the other candidate had won, it's not like we'd have done a 180 overnight - we still have a very, very big elephant in the room and it's got "Economic Collapse" painted on its flanks. So, now that the political course is set for good or for ill, and since we agree that hard times are ahead or we wouldn't be at a prepper website in the first place... what do we do first?

Assuming that most all of us are at at least a basic level of prepping, where do we as individuals and families now focus our efforts? Are food stocks the primary concern now? Gold? Debt reduction? Defense? Even more relevant, since this *is* a radio website, how can we use our communications resources to help ourselves, and each other?

If today, Election Day +1, you were to make a list, what would be at the top?

For me, radio is actually at the top of the list. My food/defense/shelter preps are in place, and even though they're not complete, they'll never be complete. The idea is to be on a path to self-sufficiency in those areas, and I am. In a worst-case SHTF scenario, though, that radio on my table is going to be my connection to the world. I need to make sure that I can power it and use it, and even more importantly, I need to make sure that I can fix it if I break it.