El Cheapo 45 Watt Solar Kit Kicks Me Off The Fence!

Started by White Tiger, June 01, 2013, 12:33:39 AM

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Frosty

Quote from: WA4STO on June 01, 2013, 03:33:11 PM
The thing that has always bugged me about the 'usual' method of solar charging is that, once the batteries are topped off, why waste all the rest of ole Sol's oomph?  The cleverest solution is to have circuitry that flips a relay and starts using that extra wattage for sump'n else.

Back in the days when I called my F650 and the RV "home", I enjoyed 'boondocking', meaning no commercial power, and no running water.  Oh, and yah, no hot water either.  But once the relay kicks in and the charging juice is diverted to a 12 volt heating element in the little water heater, well every bit helps.

That was my plan when I sized my system, guessed that I'd have some juice to spare (in the summer anyway) and would use it for water heating.  I guessed wrong.  I use every amp from the panels - and then some more from the generator on back-to-back cloudy days.  For a backup system where the batteries are usually 100% charged all the time that's a great idea though.   The Xantrex C-series charge controllers can act as a load controller and shunt excess juice elsewhere, and are only about $50 if I recall. 

White Tiger

#16
Excellent information Frosty - excellent thread everyone - I appreciate the depth of the discussion!

After I logged off last night I bought a Pure Sine Wave inverter off of eBay. It's not a large one (300w/600w) but it was "only" $75.00 and I only plan to use it for the re-charging stations (specs for my i4 intellicharger are below - charges broad range of small batteries, and can do it simultaneously).

Im pretty sure the small PSW inverter will handle the battery charging station - but just in case I'm wrong - here are the specs for the i4:

Input voltage: AC 100~240V 50/60HZ or DC 12V
Input power: 10W
Output voltage: 4.2V ?1% / 1.48V ?1%
Output current: 375mA x 4 / 750mA x 2
Dimensions (L x W x H): 5.47" (139mm) x 3.78" (96mm) x 1.42" (36mm)
Weight: 5.50 oz / 156g (without batteries and power cord)
Compatible with:
Li-ion: 26650, 22650, 18650, 17670, 18490, 17500, 17335, 16340 (RCR123), 14500 (AA), 10440
Ni-MH / Ni-Cd: AA, AAA, C

So, if Im going to buy a battery - I can buy a couple of those blue tops and run my radio off of it - without a problem?

I'm beginning to see that old Omni D manual mentioned an 18Ah battery because at the time, the Omni D (sans the power supply) was considered a mobile device....I think I'm even beginning to remember a discussion with Luck regarding those REALLY deep cycle batteries...and him saying something about "blue/red/yellow top" batteries...it just didn't stick in my non-techy gray matter...

I thought picking up the 45w solar kit & discovering the batteries were only going to run me $35 each - was waaaayyy too easy!

Just means that I buy ONE blue top now....and one a little later.
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

WA4STO

Quote from: White Tiger on June 02, 2013, 10:21:27 AM

So, if Im going to buy a battery - I can buy a couple of those blue tops and run my radio off of it without a problem?


People (least the ones *I* know!) tend to recommend the stuff that they've already done as being "the best"

My suggestion of using the Optimas has merit but nowhere near as much merit as TTABS' red Trojans.

At my advanced age (and weight), I can no longer heft the 110 lb Trojans and I certainly can NOT get them down in 'the hole'.  So for me, the next best thing is the Optimas.

As for your question about 'no problem' with running the Omni, I would think you would want to experiment, over the long term, with the different modes and thus the different power levels that your Omni can accomplish.  For example, running scenarios that balance the power output vs the available battery power (keep your voltmeter on the batts) is always instructive. 

My own experience (in the 70s, I never had a normal power supply, always used an automotive battery cuz I didn't know any better) was that I NEVER had enough battery power.  Never.  And I never considered running my TenTec on much lower power.  Today, I've finally discovered error-corrected modes that allow me perfectly reliable data transfer with much lower power, and I'm content.

Yup, start out with one.  Watch the exact model number.  For example, the 'blue tops' have three different ratings, three different models.  Mine is the 900 CCA model which was $200 each but has now skyrocketed to $269 each.

If you get more than one, remember to connect them in parallel, not in series.  Positive to positive to positive and neg to neg to neg so that the ultimate result is still 12 volt.  Put 'em in series and your Omni will be seriously broken.  Note that TTABS has some of his batts in parallel.  Anybody here know why that is?

73

Luck, WA4STO

White Tiger

Quote from: WA4STO on June 02, 2013, 10:41:08 AM
Quote from: White Tiger on June 02, 2013, 10:21:27 AM

So, if Im going to buy a battery - I can buy a couple of those blue tops and run my radio off of it without a problem?


People (least the ones *I* know!) tend to recommend the stuff that they've already done as being "the best"

My suggestion of using the Optimas has merit but nowhere near as much merit as TTABS' red Trojans.

At my advanced age (and weight), I can no longer heft the 110 lb Trojans and I certainly can NOT get them down in 'the hole'.  So for me, the next best thing is the Optimas.

As for your question about 'no problem' with running the Omni, I would think you would want to experiment, over the long term, with the different modes and thus the different power levels that your Omni can accomplish.  For example, running scenarios that balance the power output vs the available battery power (keep your voltmeter on the batts) is always instructive. 

My own experience (in the 70s, I never had a normal power supply, always used an automotive battery cuz I didn't know any better) was that I NEVER had enough battery power.  Never.  And I never considered running my TenTec on much lower power.  Today, I've finally discovered error-corrected modes that allow me perfectly reliable data transfer with much lower power, and I'm content.

Yup, start out with one.  Watch the exact model number.  For example, the 'blue tops' have three different ratings, three different models.  Mine is the 900 CCA model which was $200 each but has now skyrocketed to $269 each.

If you get more than one, remember to connect them in parallel, not in series.  Positive to positive to positive and neg to neg to neg so that the ultimate result is still 12 volt.  Put 'em in series and your Omni will be seriously broken.  Note that TTABS has some of his batts in parallel.  Anybody here know why that is?

73

Luck, WA4STO

You know Im constantly amazed at how patient you all are!

I am sure (make that positive) we have had a similar conversation regarding this - I guess the master (keeps) showing up when (each time) the student is ready....and the lessons never stop (which is a good thing, for me)!

As for the question regarding TTABS running some in parallel - and I realize I'm out of my depth here - but is this to run 24v "sets" for those sources that need a little more juice?
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

White Tiger

By the way - because I don't see the picture here - Im guessing you're referring to another thread where TTAB's posted a picture?

... is that the thread showing his solar set-up?

Looks like I'm not the only one who struggles a bit with the ADHD issue! ;)
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

s2man

Quote from: WA4STO on June 01, 2013, 03:33:11 PM
The thing that has always bugged me about the 'usual' method of solar charging is that, once the batteries are topped off, why waste all the rest of ole Sol's oomph?  The cleverest solution is to have circuitry that flips a relay and starts using that extra wattage for sump'n else.

I wandered away for a few days analyze, spec and buy solar equipment, and what do you guys do?  Start a solar thread.  ;-)

The 'dump' or 'diversion' feature you desire is commonly found on charge controllers which are designed for wind power.  You can't just disconnect a 3-phase alternator like you can a PV panel.  So you either have to stop the turbine or send the power to another use.  They sell DC heating elements for water heaters. 

I would like this feature, too.  I would charge the batteries first, then, when they are full, send the power to a grid-tie inverter to sell the juice to the power company.  I did not find this feature on any of the low-amp charge controllers I've been investigating.  However, I did find most of the nicer, small controllers also control the load.  They can turn it on at night for lighting, or shut it off when the batteries are low, to protect them from over discharging.  I like that, in case someone forgets an leaves something turned on all night.

KK0G

Quote from: s2man on June 05, 2013, 07:40:27 AM
Quote from: WA4STO on June 01, 2013, 03:33:11 PM
The thing that has always bugged me about the 'usual' method of solar charging is that, once the batteries are topped off, why waste all the rest of ole Sol's oomph?  The cleverest solution is to have circuitry that flips a relay and starts using that extra wattage for sump'n else.

I wandered away for a few days analyze, spec and buy solar equipment, and what do you guys do?  Start a solar thread.  ;-)

The 'dump' or 'diversion' feature you desire is commonly found on charge controllers which are designed for wind power.  You can't just disconnect a 3-phase alternator like you can a PV panel.  So you either have to stop the turbine or send the power to another use.  They sell DC heating elements for water heaters. 

I would like this feature, too.  I would charge the batteries first, then, when they are full, send the power to a grid-tie inverter to sell the juice to the power company.  I did not find this feature on any of the low-amp charge controllers I've been investigating.  However, I did find most of the nicer, small controllers also control the load.  They can turn it on at night for lighting, or shut it off when the batteries are low, to protect them from over discharging.  I like that, in case someone forgets an leaves something turned on all night.


I'm not a solar energy expert by any means but my research has shown pretty much what you're saying also. If you have a solar system that produces enough excess power that a diverter setup is justified, then your system is probably not sized correctly. I do understand what Luck means though, it does seem like a waste.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

KK0G

White Tiger

I am visiting a customer of mine tomorrow that began by manufacturing solar-thermal panels for water heaters (I think the most cost-effective means of the solar market) back in the '80's. He's since made the jump to also selling PV systems (although he buys PV panels from India & China).

I'm going to try to see what type of battery system he would suggest.

He's already offered me a non-installation price on PV panels & systems (and charge controller)...it was a bit more than I was willing to pay, to get started...but Im going to see if he has some batteries and if so, if we can come to some type of arrangement...
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

White Tiger

Quote from: s2man on June 05, 2013, 07:40:27 AM
I wandered away for a few days analyze, spec and buy solar equipment, and what do you guys do?  Start a solar thread.  ;-)
If you want a look at a REAL ongoing solar project, take a look at the thread a poster called TTAB's is doing. He's done a LOT of work and it's a whole-house type project.
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

Frosty

TTAB's has a pretty setup.   Interested in what what you find out today.

WA4STO

Quote from: White Tiger on June 02, 2013, 11:33:03 AM
By the way - because I don't see the picture here - Im guessing you're referring to another thread where TTAB's posted a picture?



Yeck!  This is the THIRD time I've tried to post this. 

TTABS' thread on solar (and much much much more!) can be found here:

http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,288.0.html

And, Tim, (thanks for the message), zero nada.  I'm hoping he's squirreled away in his gorgeous property, enjoying life.

73

LH

s2man

I found TTABS' thread (pre WA4STO's handy link) and read the whole thing. Well laid out description and a very nice system.  I was a bit taken back that he was dismantling and stashing it, but then realized it is a prep, not a lifestyle.  That thread led me to battery1234.com.  I listen to all of the podcasts (i.5hrs each!) and got a much better understanding of emergency power vs an off-grid lifestyle.  Its a great listen if you are interested in emergency power for lights, charging batteries, and running radios and small electronic gadgets.  He goes into bigger, more costly and flexible systems, but for about $150 you'd be living like kings compared to the neighbors sitting there in the dark with their dead iphones (or sewage backing up in the basement, like my neighbor).  I'd be happy to summarize if anyone doesn't want to listen to six hours of podcasts.

Of course, now I have as many new questions as I have answered ones. But I keep moving on and learning.

White Tiger

#27
Has anyone heard from TTABB's? I wanted to follow up with him on the sat project for an update - but he doesn't seem to have posted for awhile?

Hope all is ok...but I REALLY hope he didn't get some code texted to him and he's gone dark!

Because it would mean that I was not invited to the bunker...and the sun is setting...
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

White Tiger

#28
Quote from: Frosty on June 06, 2013, 09:32:16 AM
TTAB's has a pretty setup.   Interested in what what you find out today.

Didn't get much time - the tropical storm cut my trip short. I'll give him a call.
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

White Tiger

If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.