Radio Preppers

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: cockpitbob on November 20, 2014, 03:21:22 PM

Title: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: cockpitbob on November 20, 2014, 03:21:22 PM
I just put together a couple Get Home Bags for the wife's car and mine.  They've got the usual survival stuff tayored for 1-3 days(sleeping bag, space blanket, food, Esbit stove and 6 fuel bricks, lighters, flashlight, 1st aid, multi-tool, compas/whistle, etc, etc).  I had 2qts of water in them, but that had to come out because it's getting into the 20's some nights.  How can I store water and have the container survive many freeze/thaw cycles???

The scenario is playing out in upstate NY right now with people stuck in their cars for 2 days.  Getting out and lighting a fire in 3-5 feet of snow isn't viable and I'm assuming the fuel tank will be pretty empty.

In case you're wondering, I checked.  Wine freezes at 15F-20F so I can't substitute that for water :-\ .
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Luigi on November 20, 2014, 05:09:48 PM
Freeze and thaw cycles are fine as long as your container is able to withstand that and you have enough headroom in the container. I left a glass bottle in my car overnight once in Rochester NY. Never again did I do that. It was messy.

In a case where you would be stuck, melting the water in the container with one of those fuel bricks may be a pain, but it is possible. Being stuck in severe cold without snow can happen. In that case, melting snow is not possible. That is where your water would be useful.
Luigi
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: KK0G on November 20, 2014, 10:15:41 PM
I've frozen my Nalgeen and Camelback bottles more times than I can remember, not because of my ultra preparedness, but simply because I forgot them in the car.......doh! They're none worse for the wear and as Luigi pointed out, as long as there's a little room for expansion they'll be just fine. Ditto el cheapo bottled water bottles, no damage.

Now, as to converting solid dihydrogen oxide into a drinkable liquid, that one's simple. All you have to do is raise it's temperature to above 32 degrees Farenheit (0 degrees celsius) and....... wallah! Instant water. (Hey, I said it was simple, I never said it was easy 8) )
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 24, 2014, 03:53:23 PM
I use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.  It comes packed in wax coated boxes and so far has survived 2 winters in my vehicle.  Last winter I decided to open one box while it was frozen and thawed it in a stainless cup heated over my trangia spirit burner stover.  I just tore the box off the block of ice and put it in the cup to melt it.  Tasted just fine and has never caused a mess (yet).
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Luigi on November 24, 2014, 04:49:14 PM
Rotate the water supply if needed. Same thing for food and fuel.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: KK0G on November 24, 2014, 06:11:03 PM
Quote from: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.

I was thinking the same thing..... how exactly does water expire? We're all literally drinking the exact same water that the dinosaurs drank millions of years ago. It may have been evaporated and condensed eleventeen bajillion times since then and been contaminated with every single contaminant on earth, but it's still the exact same water.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Luigi on November 26, 2014, 12:40:32 AM
The shelf life of water is almost up there with twinkies. :)
Water does not go bad unless you contaminate it.
Luigi
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: KK0G on November 26, 2014, 01:49:37 AM
Quote from: Luigi on November 26, 2014, 12:40:32 AM
The shelf life of water is almost up there with twinkies. :)
Water does not go bad unless you contaminate it.
Luigi
True, but even when contaminated, water doesn't go "bad". It's still H2O, remove the contaminants and it's "good".
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 07:32:02 AM
Quote from: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.

You ever hear about bacteria growth ?  The water itself doesn't go bad, but bacteria growth can make it unsafe to drink without some sort of treatment like boiling or chemical purification.  Save an unopened bottle of water for a few years and put it where it can constantly heat up and cool down and maybe even get some sunlight from time to time.  Over time you will see a plume of bacteria growth start to form in a couple of years - not a good thing to ingest my friend !
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 07:39:30 AM
Quote from: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.

You ever hear about bacteria growth ?  The water itself doesn't go bad, but bacteria growth can make it unsafe to drink without some sort of treatment like boiling or chemical purification.  Save an unopened bottle of water for a few years and put it where it can constantly heat up and cool down and maybe even get some sunlight from time to time.  Over time you will see a plume of bacteria growth start to form in a couple of years - not a good thing to ingest my friend !
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: KK0G on November 26, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
Quote from: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 07:39:30 AM
Quote from: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.

You ever hear about bacteria growth ?  The water itself doesn't go bad, but bacteria growth can make it unsafe to drink without some sort of treatment like boiling or chemical purification.  Save an unopened bottle of water for a few years and put it where it can constantly heat up and cool down and maybe even get some sunlight from time to time.  Over time you will see a plume of bacteria growth start to form in a couple of years - not a good thing to ingest my friend !
But if it's sealed there's no way for bacteria to contaminate it.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: KK0G on November 26, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
Quote from: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 07:39:30 AM
Quote from: gil on November 24, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
QuoteI use emergency lifeboat water with a 5 year shelf life that I get at a local milsurp store.

Humm, water lasts forever... Maybe the 5 years shelf life is for the container...

Gil.

You ever hear about bacteria growth ?  The water itself doesn't go bad, but bacteria growth can make it unsafe to drink without some sort of treatment like boiling or chemical purification.  Save an unopened bottle of water for a few years and put it where it can constantly heat up and cool down and maybe even get some sunlight from time to time.  Over time you will see a plume of bacteria growth start to form in a couple of years - not a good thing to ingest my friend !
But if it's sealed there's no way for bacteria to contaminate it.

I would not bet my life on that !  One little, microscopic organism can multiply into thousands over time, and with packaging plants not being as clean as they should be, then its very possible for bacteria to be present when its packaged.  Look at all your bottled water - it does have an expiration date on it for a reason. 
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: cockpitbob on November 26, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
And bacteria need food.  I would just put a jug of distilled water in the car if I thought it was durable enough.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: gil on November 26, 2014, 12:02:46 PM
I guess in a life raft you can't boil water! For most other situations, just make a good cup of tea and you're good..

Gil.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Luigi on November 26, 2014, 01:32:53 PM
Bacteria treatment for water that has been stored for a long time:
Filter the water. Coffee filters work well. This removes some of the material causing cloudiness. It does not purify the water.
Mix unsented bleach (5-8% strength) with the water. 5 drops for every liter.

It is best to use a new clean container to purify the water. Sterilize the old container for future storage.

As stated before, turn over the water supply.

If you are using lifeboat water, keep in mind that the water and the containers are sterilized as they are packaged. They do not build up bacteria if they remain sealed.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 02:27:17 PM
Quote from: Luigi on November 26, 2014, 01:32:53 PM
Bacteria treatment for water that has been stored for a long time:
Filter the water. Coffee filters work well. This removes some of the material causing cloudiness. It does not purify the water.
Mix unsented bleach (5-8% strength) with the water. 5 drops for every liter.

It is best to use a new clean container to purify the water. Sterilize the old container for future storage.

As stated before, turn over the water supply.

If you are using lifeboat water, keep in mind that the water and the containers are sterilized as they are packaged. They do not build up bacteria if they remain sealed.

Even if they do, I guess its better to be hydrated and sick, than to be dehydrated and dead !  :)
Title: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: KK0G on November 26, 2014, 07:49:07 PM
Expiration dates on water sounds to me like typical government trying to protect me from myself, it's gonna take a miracle to convince me that pure, clean water in a sealed container can ever go bad so long as it's not exposed to contaminants. Water stored in underground aquifers for millennia is safely consumed everyday by millions of people. That the FDA requires expiration dates on bottled water doesn't surprise me, hell MSDS (material safety data sheets) have also been submitted to appease OSHA...... what would we ever do without the federal governments alphabet agencies to protect us from the evils of water?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: gil on November 26, 2014, 10:06:46 PM
I wouls assume the water is sterilized after packaging, not before...

Gil.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on November 28, 2014, 07:21:29 AM
Quote from: gil on November 26, 2014, 10:06:46 PM
I wouls assume the water is sterilized after packaging, not before...

Gil.

Hmmm ? How would that work ?  The lifeboat water is packed in wax coated paper boxes, so I would think that heating would not be used.  Chemicals ?
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: cockpitbob on November 28, 2014, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: Lamewolf on November 28, 2014, 07:21:29 AM

Hmmm ? How would that work ?  The lifeboat water is packed in wax coated paper boxes, so I would think that heating would not be used.  Chemicals ?
Irradiation.  ?
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Quietguy on November 28, 2014, 06:45:43 PM
I believe most sterilization of that nature is done by very high radiation levels.  Apparently that is how bandages and medical equipment are sterilized after packaging.

Wally
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: NCGunDude on November 29, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
Quote from: Lamewolf on November 26, 2014, 02:27:17 PM
Quote from: Luigi on November 26, 2014, 01:32:53 PM
Bacteria treatment for water that has been stored for a long time:
Filter the water. Coffee filters work well. This removes some of the material causing cloudiness. It does not purify the water.
Mix unsented bleach (5-8% strength) with the water. 5 drops for every liter.

It is best to use a new clean container to purify the water. Sterilize the old container for future storage.

As stated before, turn over the water supply.

If you are using lifeboat water, keep in mind that the water and the containers are sterilized as they are packaged. They do not build up bacteria if they remain sealed.

Even if they do, I guess its better to be hydrated and sick, than to be dehydrated and dead !  :)

Not exactly. Drinking contaminated water will cause gastrointestinal illness and diarrhea, which can kill you.

A great movie I saw recently was "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. He was stranded on a disabled sail boat, and went to extraordinary lengths to distill water using evaporation. There is also some good radio in the movie. A great story of survival and if you haven't seen it, it's worth seeing.

I don't know a lot about water storage, but we've got a couple of liters in our car kits. If they froze, I expect the caps would split and wet everything down when it thaws. Maybe I'll pour a little out so there's more room to expand. I've been following this thread as more people have commented, and hadn't given it a lot of thought since we don't get too many hard freezes. But, it does happen, and I would just as soon not have to deal with a wet or mildewed kit.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: gil on November 29, 2014, 11:52:30 PM
QuoteA great movie I saw recently was "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. He was stranded on a disabled sail boat, and went to extraordinary lengths to distill water using evaporation. There is also some good radio in the movie. A great story of survival and if you haven't seen it, it's worth seeing.

It is a good movie. The sailor however does make a series of blatant errors, even though he also makes some good decisions...

Gil.
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Lamewolf on December 01, 2014, 02:48:59 PM
Quote from: gil on November 29, 2014, 11:52:30 PM
QuoteA great movie I saw recently was "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. He was stranded on a disabled sail boat, and went to extraordinary lengths to distill water using evaporation. There is also some good radio in the movie. A great story of survival and if you haven't seen it, it's worth seeing.

It is a good movie. The sailor however does make a series of blatant errors, even though he also makes some good decisions...

Gil.

Well, even experts make some mistakes !  On Dual Survival with Cody Lundin and Dave Canterburry, I saw them in the Florida Everglades and they heated water in a snake skin to purify it.  They had a 1 gallon metal can but it would only hold about an inch of water because it had holes poked in the sides.  I would have carved wooden plugs to seal the holes in the can and then boil water a gallon at a time !
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: Luigi on December 01, 2014, 04:24:31 PM
All Is Lost was a wonderful movie. Not much dialogue. :)
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: whoppo on December 24, 2014, 08:38:23 PM
Mix a little single malt scotch with that winter water... no more freezing ;)
Title: Re: Emergency Supplies in Car: what about water in winter?
Post by: ciphercomms on February 04, 2015, 04:46:39 PM
The 'lifeboat' water available from EBay/Amazon is mostly sealed in Mylar/foil laminated packets. I believe the 5 year shelf life rating is related to how long the packaging is likely to last under the canvas cover of a life boat on the deck of a freighter that transits from Arctic to Equator several times a year. Under less demanding conditions it will last much longer. Most sea-going emergency gear is certified by international SOLAS organization -- Safety of Life at Sea. They are sailors and scientists, not Commies or Nazis.