Radio Preppers

Is it just me?  It seems almost daily that on the 2 big name ham radio sites, the most bitter, mean spirited and generally obnoxious postings are made as a matter of course.  One ham posts about ham radio being useful in this terrible monsoon damage in northern India.  Straight away, some son of a pig has to post something about call centers from India (which I like BTW - polite people who speak English are rare) . 8,000 dead, 66,000 missing and entire villages including their subsistence farms, literally wiped off the face of the Earth and these are the comments made by the 'hobby' guys!?  May they personally come to know the terror about which they make jokes.

It does not matter if the topic is about QRP, EMCOMM, antennas or almost any topic, these self-propelled-rectums are blethering away, spilling filth, trying to troll. I could go on, but why? 

Interestingly enough, in face-to-face conversations at Dayton or the occasional ham fest, I rarely find this sort of behavior - in fact it's been zero.  Perhaps the fact that I'm 6'5" and able to "correct" such poor behavior on the spot might have something to do with it.  It's not that I have a bad temper - I do not.  It's the cowardice of sniping from behind a keyboard or radio jamming on well established nets is seen as 'safe' because of being out of reach.  Any willingness to convert this bad behavior into actual, physical WORK face-to-face is rare indeed - at least in ham circles.

>>> This is the prime reason that I am grateful for THIS radio forum.  People here are more focused on exchanging ideas to make things better, helping others out with solutions, and trying new ways and methods - like Gil's magnetic loop experiments, which I enjoyed assisting in a tiny way as a distant receiving station.  The occasional troll, SPAMmer and/or anti-social malcontent is rapidly show the door.  We have a collection of raw beginners , old hands and just about anything in between and on a variety of topics, not ONLY radio. There is an increasing move to get on the air from outside of the home, even if it's only a short walk from the car to a park bench. The camping skeds have been AWESOME!  That's always enjoyable and SHARED right here on the forum. Now, I would NOT go so far as to publicly declare that none of us are CERTIFIABLY NUTS, but at least we all play well together.


Gil has run a good forum for what - about a year now? Glad you're all here. 


Now - GET BACK TO WORK!



>de RadioRay ..._ ._

The general grumpyness on the web seems to track the economy.  On other sites I've seen the general disposition and amount of unprompted complaining get worse since '08.  It seems to be getting a bit better now.

Well, thanks Ray, much appreciated  :)

I did not see that thread you mention about India, but some people really have no understanding of what it means to be in a disaster. Talk about lack of respect..

That said I'll keep bashing contesters!  ::) in a polite but firm way, mind you.. Hehehe.

Gil.

Agreed, we have an awesome group of like minded members here. Although we don't disagree often - I've always enjoyed a good spirited debate - it's always done in a respectful manner.

I think the main reason we all get along so well, besides being like minded, is the fact we're a relatively small group and although I've never personally met anyone here, it feels more like a bunch of friends that just happen to meet on a forum as opposed to the other way around. Unfortunately therein may lie the potential problem; as the forum grows that could be lost, let's hope it doesn't.

I quit going to those forums a few years ago when the petty bickering and backbiting made it not worth the trouble.  I still go to specific posts that a Google search turns up, but no more drive-bys just to see what's happening.  Actually, this is the only ham forum I visit any more.

Wally

I am pretty happy about the way the forum turned out as well.. Thanks to you guys, really. The fact is that there just wasn't that kind of forum anywhere, so I got the domain name and installed the software.. All in about an hour.. No plan, no defined goal, on a whim. I still read every single post. As the forum grows though, I won't be able to do that anymore. That's when moderators will be appreciated! There are probably a dozen "usual suspects" here I could think of to promote to this role. Nothing much more to do than you do already, which is read and post what you like. However when someone posts something over the edge or spam, you can moderate, without me. I do hope the forum grows, but I also hope in a way that it stays the same, if that makes sense.. We'll just all have to be vigilant.. One thing this site has for it is that it is not meant to make money, only to pay for itself and whatever else is the cherry on the cake. I would have died of starvation long ago if I counted on it for income! So, there is no financial pressure.. It does of course bring me more than it costs me, in knowledge and friendship. Where am I going with this?  :o Getting tired, it's late.. I know people don't like censorship, but I will not censor ideas, only rudeness and false information.. I don't decide what's false mind you, the laws of physics do. as to rudeness, I just don't want to be subjected to it, so that's that. I'm the captain of this ship. I'm glad you are all here. We'll keep this place nice and open :)

Gil.

Anything radio or electronics related, this is where I head.  Often more heat than light at many of the prepper sites with just a ham/comm sub-board.  Here, instead of getting a "here's what you should do" answer we get a "here's what I did that works" response (with pics!).  Thanks for putting this together Gil.

I am not familiar with the HAM forums mentioned, but I've lost count of how many survival/prepper or scuba forums I've walked away from over the same type of issues.  I do think that the quality of moderation helps.  A manageable size helps too.

Most of the acrimony seems to come from rules that say "no politics", but then the only time the rule is enforced is when the politics are contrary to that of the moderator.  Some of it comes from treating every newcomer as a troll.  Then some of it gets started by folks who really are trolls.

In the past year I also saw a genealogy society implode, so it isn't only Internet forums that fall apart.

I think watching our current political leadership, who will say anything to impugn the opposition, gives the impression that this sort of behavior is okay in other venues.

I am enjoying this forum and do think that both the moderators and the participants are making it a useful and friendly forum.  It will be a challenge to keep it that way over time.

Quote from: RadioRay on June 27, 2013, 05:29:36 PM...these self-propelled-rectums...

It's the cowardice of sniping from behind a keyboard...

The first I'm stealing. The second is a round in the X-ring of how that happens. No different than how things turn out differently during email exchanges with someone they don't really know, and why people will text back & forth all day rather than dial the number after exchanging more than a few texts.

I also enjoy the camping skeds and plan to be on the distant end of those at some point as the retirement things sorts itself out. I already actually like Ramen noodles so it's OK.

I have noticed on both of the big boards mentioned that it's just sifting chaff from grain. I have less than 1 handful of people whose replies I'd really value because of their focus, humor & civil tone.  They've been & remain good mentors and I can email them directly if I want. Not coincidentally, the same folks on either board.

OK, as to the ASA equivalent of "now move out & draw fire" hey! - I'm workin' on it, it's almost looking like a radio. I'll shoot you a back-channel when ready for the first KX3 QSO.

Meanwhile, gotta go cut both yards before the daily tstms move in, a factor of late in this region I'm sure KK0G & others are familiar with lately - and it could be gone anytime.

As Geek saiqd, takes time for a forum to mature, this has been better than many on these topics which is why I still hang out. Keeping a relevant subset of fora on the site is helpful, as not everything is for everybody. First year is just a birthing process & a difficult balance of focus, tolerance, tempered with a willingness to kick the trolls right to the curb.

Happy trails - this dawn cup of java thing without pulling out of the drive to head for work is kinda nice.
8)

Well put Ray.

I have been turned off lately by certain forums. Seems to me instead of using a forum to promote ideas and help people it turns into bitch sessions. This place is low-to-no BS and i like it that way.

I don't want to negate the overall tone of this thread.  This has been a good forum so far.  However, we've really only been tested by a few trolls touting illegal topics like jamming or over powered CBs.

However, prepper forums tend to be populated by people who are not expecting the government to solve all of their problems, i.e. conservatives.  To the extent that someone is either a liberal or simply nuetral on an issue things can start to sound worse than the evening news pretty fast.

For instance, the last prepper forum I dropped off of had a whole series of anti illegal immigration threads.  To hear these guys one would have to believe that everything wrong in the country was due to illegal immigrants, like we couldn't have any problems that were our own fault, e.g. is the problem illegal immigrants getting food stamps, or is the problem the food stamp program is growing to absurd proportions?  Note that this forum had a rule against political topics, but didn't seem to see bashing immigrants as a political topic.

My wife is a naturalized citizen.  We are 6 years into what will be a 10 year wait for my step-daughter to get a green card.  We don't have any use for food stamps.  Needless to say, it was an easy forum for me to turn off.  I am sure they lose other members over different issues.

We will have challenges dealing with some topics that spin out of control.  Every forum does.  The recent posts about jamming were easy to spot, but something will come up that is more difficult to recognize and that will be the real test.

Quote from: Geek on June 28, 2013, 11:17:24 AMEntire post above.

Superbly done, old man.

This is about the only radio related forum I come to anymore.  Very comfortable feel, all seem to keep to the facts, the camp scheds, the technical, just the can do attitude is refreshing.

"...what I think >I< can do, what >I< would like to do, 'here's what worked, what didn't work and why".  There is no "here's what >you< should be doin".

Thank you for hosting the site, Gil.  I just wish I was a bit closer in, with a few less urgent distractions going on at my end, so I could be a bit more active.  Means more to me than I can say. 

Allan

Quote from: KC9TNH on June 28, 2013, 11:41:19 AM

Quote from: Geek on June 28, 2013, 11:17:24 AMEntire post above.

Superbly done, old man.

Thanks for taking it the way I meant it.  Thanks to Gill for his fine leadership.  Thanks to everyone who has helped me get started with amateur  radio.   :)

This is the only Forum I come to anymore. I have seen the bitterness not just on HAM radio sites but almost all forums I use to regular.
I tend to come up with crazy ideas, and its nice to have a place that I can post those ideas and get good solid feed back. The knowledge that everyone has and is willing to share is greatly appreciated. I would not be as far in my communications as I am if not for all of you.

Thank You Gil and everyone else for maintaining a great place.

73

Joe

There are folks that determine themselves to be very "left-leaning" - even here...the difference is...they think we're headed for some form of the apocalypse too (at least those I've spoken to).

I've become more libertarian in my political persuasions - not that I believe that will be the thing that saves us - it will just divide us three ways, instead of two.

We have allowed things to get to the point that they don't look recoverable -  doesnt mean I won't try to work to improve it, it just means I don't think politics (as they're currently defining themselves) are the answer to the problems we have. Somehow, those that can & should be working, have got it in their heads that this country of individuals owes them something? More takers than earners mean the system can't be sustained - something has to give - therefore some of us prepare for any/all eventualities.

I would think folks come here are preparing for the worst - it would be provocative for folks with a determined left-leaning agenda to come here and try and talk us OUT of prepping, or out of of including radio in our prepps.

However; I've been on larger prepping oriented forums where that has happened. Not sure why anyone would waste time with someone who deliberately seeks to be obtuse...

I'm thinking Gil might have a warning alarm at the QTH that automatically flushes  folks who decidedly do NOT agree that the world is sliding off it's moorings...and that radio is something that can keep like-minded folks tethered together when it happens....

Hum, interesting.. I think few would try to dissuade people from prepping.. The only ones I have seen were wives making fun of their prepper husbands behind their back.. They probably would rather see that money used for spa treatments.. I don't think prepping is really a matter of politics. People are starting to realize that Democrat and Republican politicians answer to the same masters. Anyway, I do know leftists who know how to live off the land, hippie style.. There is a whole subculture (Rainbow people) who live most of the year in the woods and learn skills long forgotten. I don't think they would last in a real collapse, but they do have some know-how. As I have said, everyone is welcome here. I would put a stop though to any pinkish proselytising; being that I am a strong proponent of private property! One of my favorite authors is Ayn Rand, if that tells you guys anything  ;) I classify people in two categories: Producers and parasites. Since most leftists believe they are entitled to money they haven't worked for, I don't like them, the same way I wouldn't like someone who robbed me at gunpoint in a dark alley. At least the guy mugging me is taking a risk, he has some balls.. The same can't be said of a welfare recipient. Morally, it is the same thing, maybe even a little worse. I should require every new member to read "Atlas Shrugged"  ;D

Gil.

Interesting fork of this discussion -

I've come to see the Left/Right paradigm is an artifice to control the discussion.  Classical Poly-Sci-101 is left = Socialism and Right = Fascism.  (Yet the Nazis were fascist 'National Socialists' - go figger...)  For me to put this into a linear scale, I would have to put free at one end and slave at the other end of the line. Call it anything that you like, but for me - it really does not matter what uniforms those who try to  - or actually DO - enslave a world: they are evil.  There is a Marxist concept (though it existed long before) of 'controlled opposition'.  We've all seen TV/radio talk show hosts with one Boss: one is a rabid 'left winger' and the other is a 'right-wing kook', both working for the same station, both adhering to the stations/network editorial policy, though their particular feed teams/writers are often separate. Media and politicians in general (from my experience) are like TV wrestling: it's a show. Hulk Hogan is NOT really trying to kill, Jesse The Body Ventura - it's an act and a well paying one too.  Same, same with the left/right at high level.  The manipulators at high level will definitely fight each other (within limits) for the bigger piece of the pie, but I have news for you: WE are the 'pie'.  I eventually came to the belief, after seeing strings pulled in several parts of the world, becoming aware of the murdering in the multiple millions, the actual top players were unharmed.  After all - it is not THEIR blood or bloodlines killed in the wars or in the streets - it is ours.

Either way though - WE are being manipulated on a grand scale. With almost  seven billion people on this Earth, I refuse to be channeled into one of two "sides"'.  There is no such thing as 'BOTH sides' - there are generally MANY ways to do most things, including not doing them at all.  Even in a divorce there is His Side, Her Side and then the way that it REALLY is.

Here are 'two sides' for you: 

"You want to live from the production of your own hands and there others who ALSO want to live from the production of your hands." // and I believe that there are those who love to watch us all fight over it. //

I've snipped this posting much shorter than it was. No reason to drift too far off the prepping theme, but if the controlled media wanted a nation of preppers, 'They' could do that in short order, just like the way they have people wearing baggy pants that show their butts, hankies on head with ball caps on backwards, shiney spinning hub caps and buying NEW cars and other things they cannot afford. 'Preppers', 'survivalists' and 'gun nuts' are a media creation to eliminate or at least prejudice the thought process required to plan and prep before it occurs. After-all: If you do not 'need' Big Brother, then you are a threat to Big Brother.


de RadioRay ..._ ._






 

Agreed - almost like the current leadership of BOTH political parties have read things like; "1984" and "Brave New World" as a manuals...instead of the warnings they were intended to be - warnings as to what happens if you keep feeding your individual power to the state in exchange for peace, safety, and eventually...comfort...

Quote from: White Tiger on July 07, 2013, 03:03:30 AM
Agreed - almost like the current leadership of BOTH political parties have read things like; "1984" and "Brave New World" as a manuals...instead of the warnings they were intended to be - warnings as to what happens if you keep feeding your individual power to the state in exchange for peace, safety, and eventually...comfort...

I would suggest their core curriculum included more like Engels-Marx-Alinsky.
Most of the current dead elephant party are going along to get along, one hoping to survive based on being useful idiots to the other. But their ditch has been dug, and the quicklime ordered, make no mistake.

It's about power and who has it. Economic power, self-defense capability, or general self-sufficiency in day-to-day living is a threat to the playbook.

Have to agree that the left-right classification system is mostly for control.  I read somewhere that it originated sometime around the 1789 french revolution, at the french national assembly, loyalists to the crown would sit to the right of the king, supporters of the revolution would sit to the left. 

Would think that would make it easy to decide who goes to the gillotine  :o

I've always thought that the current mix of ideas in the left camps , or right camps for that matter, would never normally coexist with each other. 

Pigeon hole something, and it becomes boxed in and neatly packaged, for control

Allan

At the risk of possibly alienating myself I'll reveal my political stance; I'm a true Libertarian. I know, probably a big shocker there 8). Don't violate my or anyone else's rights (including forcibly taking the fruits of my labor against my will) and we'll get along just fine no matter how cockamamie your ideas are - as long as they don't violate my or anyone else's rights (I see a pattern developing here ;)).

I recommend everyone read "For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" by Murray Rothbard http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp). It explains how libertarianism is the only sustainable 'political' system in a logical way that I could never hope to convey here in a forum post.

Libertarians: we want to take over the world and then............ leave you alone.

Quote http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp)

Excellent, thanks!

Gil.

Quote from: gil on July 07, 2013, 07:04:33 PM

Quote http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp)

Excellent, thanks!

Gil.

You're welcome. This extremely detailed book was a huge eye opener for me and it answered all of those 'why?' questions I've had since I was literally a youth; Why do I have to pay taxes against my will? Why does an authority figure have the power to tell me what I can and can't do as long as I don't violate someone else's rights? etc. The book didn't actually answer those questions, what it did was explain I was right to ask those questions and show that I wasn't the only person asking 'why?'.

Yes, I've had sort of a long standing problem with authority 8)

QuoteThis extremely detailed book was a huge eye opener for me and it answered all of those 'why?' questions I've had since I was literally a youth

"Atlas Shrugged" did that for me...

Gil.

Ignoring historical labels and just using the terms left and right the way they are used day to day in the US, "left" generally means using government to solve perceived problems, while "right" represents allowing people the freedom to solve their own problems without government interference.  One can be a leftist on one issue and a rightist on another and one would characterize oneself depending on where they are on most issues of the day.

It seems to me that if you become a prepper, you have concluded that the government is not capable of protecting you against some set of risks, e.g. natural disasters, war, terrorism, crime, economic collapse, etc.  If you have reached that conclusion, then you have basically concluded you are on the right for that set of issues.  There will also be a tendency to move right on other issues, e.g. if you need to prep, wouldn't it be nice to have lower taxes so you can use more of your money to do a better job of prepping?

This doesn't mean you have to be on one side all the time, but I think it does say something about your thinking and that is why prepping has such a bad name on the left.

Quote from: Geek on July 08, 2013, 09:04:18 AM
Ignoring historical labels and just using the terms left and right the way they are used day to day in the US, "left" generally means using government to solve perceived problems, while "right" represents allowing people the freedom to solve their own problems without government interference.  One can be a leftist on one issue and a rightist on another and one would characterize oneself depending on where they are on most issues of the day.

It seems to me that if you become a prepper, you have concluded that the government is not capable of protecting you against some set of risks, e.g. natural disasters, war, terrorism, crime, economic collapse, etc.  If you have reached that conclusion, then you have basically concluded you are on the right for that set of issues.  There will also be a tendency to move right on other issues, e.g. if you need to prep, wouldn't it be nice to have lower taxes so you can use more of your money to do a better job of prepping?

This doesn't mean you have to be on one side all the time, but I think it does say something about your thinking and that is why prepping has such a bad name on the left.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment.

I find this part of Geek's posting especially cogent:

"It seems to me that if you become a prepper, you have concluded that the government is not capable of protecting you against some set of risks..."

Self reliance, even in part, is an act requiring personal responsibility for your own life. It is also generally seen as a threat by those who aim to control you and those who WANT TO BE controlled.


>de RadioRay ..._ ._

Quote from: RadioRay on July 08, 2013, 12:35:14 PMSelf reliance, even in part, is an act requiring personal responsibility for your own life. It is also generally seen as a threat by those who aim to control you and those who WANT TO BE controlled.


>de RadioRay ..._ ._

My emphasis above, and an important statement borne out by history. Do not lose focus of the fact that part of a statist's strength is derived from their own constituency, those who are stakeholders & have resigned themselves to feed at the trough. You are a threat to them as well; mass graves around this big blue marble are full of those who were betrayed by "neighbors" who didn't want their apple cart upset. Jes' sayin'.

Quote from: KC9TNH on July 08, 2013, 01:01:31 PM

Quote from: RadioRay on July 08, 2013, 12:35:14 PMSelf reliance, even in part, is an act requiring personal responsibility for your own life. It is also generally seen as a threat by those who aim to control you and those who WANT TO BE controlled.


>de RadioRay ..._ ._

My emphasis above, and an important statement borne out by history. Do not lose focus of the fact that part of a statist's strength is derived from their own constituency, those who are stakeholders & have resigned themselves to feed at the trough. You are a threat to them as well; mass graves around this big blue marble are full of those who were betrayed by "neighbors" who didn't want their apple cart upset. Jes' sayin'.

I agree other than part of a statist's strength is derived from their own constituency. Actually all of the states power is derived from the governed themselves. Think about a hypothetical situation where all of the governed (and I mean every last single citizen) refuses to be governed by the state any longer, the state would be completely powerless to do anything about it. The state simply cannot survive without the power given it by it's citizens.

It is also determined by those who are NOT apart of its constituency (which in the beginning is usually not greater than 20% - 30% - but this group is completely dedicated group of true believers) - the larger population is apathetic, overworked, under-represented, and overall - in disbelief, if not depressed. It is hard to motivate this type.

It is why most modern counter-revolutions fail.

We have very little cohesiveness because those things we used to have on common, have been eroded from our culture.

We (those of us awake) seem now to be a bunch of lone wolves huddling in our dens, seeking to protect our own.


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Quote from: White Tiger on July 08, 2013, 01:36:05 PMIt is why most modern counter-revolutions fail.

I think you meant revolution, with the Leviathan doing that counter- thing. True enough, most do - and without external support even after getting folks off the couch - it would be a long row to hoe. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing. The depths of how ugly is has to get is borne out by the fact that Americans have largely not reached their tipping point. When the  money runs out for the constituency it's gonna get sporty.

Of course, they could always see the error of their ways and simply capitulate.
[/sarcasm]
8)

Coming back to the original topic, grumpiness on web forums, I think we've covered a bunch of reasons for people to be out of sorts.  However, I think at the core people are either cheerful or grumpy.  Personally I prefer to hang around the cheerful ones, whether in person or online.

Ya know, Geek, you make a good point; we can choose to be either.

Over the extended holiday weekend I used a contest to wring out the KX3 and establish a couple things about some antenna work that's getting done shortly.  One thing they had that I was totally unfamiliar with was this thing called a 'spotter' page where apparently people post & tell each other where Station-XYZ is. I guess DX'ers and contesters use these things all the time.  I already knew that any contacts I made were going to be QRP CW only.

What really struck me was the behavior seen on that spotter page was similar to what's encountered on the fora under discussion & across much of the internet. I think that lack of civility is emboldened when folks have the luxury of not looking another person in the eye. One sees that in the comments following an on-line newspaper article; rarely in a letter they had to sign & send to a newspaper. Most of the really snarky comments were signed by "me" rather than the person's call. I know the difference between stern, resolute, and grumpy. Not being grumpy all the time seems much less tiring.

"Where's so & so?!?!"
'Jeebers, are they ever gonna get up?"
"Is there anyone alive in Virginia?"
"I only need one more for the sweep! CT where are you????!!!!!"

It was comical, but sad.  The stations in states that regularly operated CW?  All fine gents, some I've chatted with before and you could have a brief few remarks while they were working you too. (Frankly it seemed to me that was because most of these contesters' brains were stuck in SSB-only but that's just my two Euros.)

In terms of an AAR on the KX3 and the efficacy of CW it is kinda funny.  Early in the AM I heard a Japan station and answered; that turned out to be a quick exchange, maybe he was just getting ready for the event 'cause I heard him later.  But I was just in & out of the room; not enough free time to tie-down a sked - I'd just pop in, LISTEN, and see what's happening and call, then back outside to work. But I guarantee with 1 thermos of coffee on the first morning I could've swept all the stations if that's all I wanted to do because I wouldn't have been stuck waiting for someone to fire up on a band that reached me via SSB only. If someone was around CW, I'd simply put the amp on standby, flip the coax switch, and dit-dah away. Without CW many others were, quite literally, run aground on a sandbar in a drought.

Then after making the mistake of ice cream w/ fresh strawberries too late at night, I was up in the wee hours and chatted with Deutschland getting a 579. So the KX3 plays well and seems to have no grumpiness attached to it either. (Dang Sugarmares; I'm supposed to give those to the grandkids before handing them back over to their parents...)
8)

Quote from: KC9TNH on July 08, 2013, 04:01:38 PM

Quote from: White Tiger on July 08, 2013, 01:36:05 PMIt is why most modern counter-revolutions fail.

I think you meant revolution, with the Leviathan doing that counter- thing. True enough, most do - and without external support even after getting folks off the couch - it would be a long row to hoe. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing. The depths of how ugly is has to get is borne out by the fact that Americans have largely not reached their tipping point. When the  money runs out for the constituency it's gonna get sporty.

Of course, they could always see the error of their ways and simply capitulate.
[/sarcasm]
8)

I agree whole heartedly with your conclusion(s), but I believe we have been in the midst of a Fabian-esque revolutionary creep for a number of years.

I say Fabian-esque, because the Fabian's are socialist, tending towards a worldwide socialist philosophy, captured by the phrase: "workers of the world, unite..." - while what has been underway in the USA (largely since the war to confront Fascism - WWII) seems to tend towards Nazional Zocialism (sans the designer uniforms).

It is therefore my firm belief that the revolution happened...the counter-revolution was infiltrated, it's leadership commandeered, it's goals co-opted and ultimately defeated...long ago.

To wit: the reason I began prepping - I believe we (as a nation, and a culture) have crossed the line - we are no longer capable of fixing this by "throwing the bums out". Too many of us are tied in some form or fashion to the government - which was the basis for the apathy. The operable, defining phrase from the novel Gil quoted by Ayn Rand is "who is John Galt?" - is a sigh of resignation...for a nearly forgotten ideal, from a bygone era...

...NOT a call to arms.

Sorry for continuing the hijacking, wanted to finish a thought! - forward error correction applied - that is all.

[P.S., if I close with an exclamation point, and a smiley face, does it help make me seem more approachable? ;) ]


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Quote from: White Tiger on July 08, 2013, 05:21:36 PMThe operable, defining phrase from the novel Gil quoted by Ayn Rand is "who is John Galt?" - is a sigh of resignation...for a nearly forgotten ideal, from a bygone era...

...NOT a call to arms.

Within the context of the novel I would agree.

I also concur that there is no solving this in the voting booth.
;)

I disagree.  It can be solved at the voting booth, but to do so people need to show up and vote.  The last election had an all time record number of people voting, but it still only represented 60% of the eligible voters.

If you don't show up you really have no basis for complaining, no matter what happens.

Geek and Wes, you are both right. Though there is little hope in the voting booth, since Democrat and Republican candidates are bankers' puppets. Of course nobody wants a revolution, I certainly do not. So, the solution adopted by John Galt is that the producers of the world just throw the towel and go create their own world somewhere else. This is already happening in Europe, where entrepreneurs move to other countries. Not only for cheaper labor, but to avoid exhorbitant taxes used to pay for a myriad of social programs. French actor Gerard Depardieu even renounced his French citizenship when the government decided to levy a 70% tax on high income and went to Russia! More freedom in Russia? Well, it's getting there.. I would love to see big businesses, affluent inventors and businessmen all move to an inviting libertarian country! I'd be on my way too.. You guys could call me DX!

Gil.

Back to the original subject 8)

Perfect example of why I love this forum; this thread is now 3 pages long, we have multiple differing opinions (although admittedly not that different) and so far not a single case of name calling, personal attacks, pissing matches, thread lock down, etc, etc. Just a group of like minded individuals in an intelligent conversation agreeing on some points and disagreeing on others and allowing the subject to sort of flow from one related topic to the next.

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread hijack............ what topic were we on? LOL ;D

Quote from: gil on July 08, 2013, 07:19:19 PM
Geek and Wes, you are both right. Though there is little hope in the voting booth, since Democrat and Republican candidates are bankers' puppets. Of course nobody wants a revolution, I certainly do not. So, the solution adopted by John Galt is that the producers of the world just throw the towel and go create their own world somewhere else. This is already happening in Europe, where entrepreneurs move to other countries. Not only for cheaper labor, but to avoid exhorbitant taxes used to pay for a myriad of social programs. French actor Gerard Depardieu even renounced his French citizenship when the government decided to levy a 70% tax on high income and went to Russia! More freedom in Russia? Well, it's getting there.. I would love to see big businesses, affluent inventors and businessmen all move to an inviting libertarian country! I'd be on my way too.. You guys could call me DX!

Gil.

Bankers Puppets?  Banking is one of the most regulated industries we have.  We're also getting a full load of Dodd-Frank with 250 new regulations coming down the pipe.  If this is how Washington treats their masters, I'd sure hate to see what they do to someone they feel they can walk over.

As for Russia, I spent a year there and it is a totally different culture from the US and is a whole different story.

QuoteBankers Puppets?  Banking is one of the most regulated industries we have.

Well, just follow the money... Bailouts... I am outerly convinced that the government is controlled by commercial interests, mainly the banking, oil and armament industries. We are presented with candidates who answer to them on both sides. Democracy is an illusion. The bipartisan system is alike asking a child: "Do you want to go to bed at 9:00 or 9:15?" But really, the parents are calling the shots...

Gil.

I show up (still) for every election, even dog-catcher if it were an elected office.
That said, and given the figures Geek put forth which are solid, there must be a change in the electorate's view if that is to be the desired method. And that will not happen until some tipping point, which has not yet been reached. The "little" tipping points are being managed very well from a propaganda perspective; and people who've lost their history do not have a sense of what "a long train of abuses" looks like.*

This is still the greatest successful experience in governance (to my knowledge) thus far. For those not in a position to see a "gulch" in their lifetime or move off-shore, but who recognize the need, then they need to keep pounding a message that resonates. It doesn't have to have a perfect SWR, but it needs to resonate sufficiently to get more folks off the couch before guillotines come back in style.

I like Gil's analogy of the "bi-partisan" system.
:)


* In my opinion Vermont should be called the First State because they did that on their own with land grants from a rather congenial NH & bucked the old King while the others were still busy getting their stuff in order. (Because of whiny-arsed NY they didn't become one of "our" states until 1791.) How would such an act work out these days?

I do not for a second believe Europe will figure their way out of their collective problem...

You cannot cure cancer with smaller doses of the toxins that caused the cancer in the first place....

No country - anywhere - is getting better.

The political answers are statists vs controlled opposition. Those that need to stand up, aren't. What Ayn Rand described was withdrawing from the process and heading to another state...but that was back in the 50's when that idea might have worked...now the state she picked to retreat to...is a bastion of the left!

...kinda like expecting Cossacks to retreat to Siberia in order to live in peaceful disobedience to their state.

The way I figure it, chaos is a comin' and it's part of the plan. Nothing like a little chaos to help sheeple "get right"...

I figure the chaos lasts about a year. That's how I've built the basis of my prepps, and I'm building forward from there...

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Quote from: gil on July 08, 2013, 09:27:12 PM
The bipartisan system is alike asking a child: "Do you want to go to bed at 9:00 or 9:15?" But really, the parents are calling the shots...

Gil.

Yep, and we were warned about this:

"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into
two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting
measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension,
is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution." - John Adams

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the
spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages
and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a
frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and
permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually
incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute
power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing
faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this
disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of
Public Liberty

Without looking forward to an extremity of this
kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the
common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to
make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and
restrain it.

It serves always to distract
the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It
agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms;
kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally
riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and
corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself
through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of
one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There
is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon
the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the
spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in
Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence,
if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the
popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not
to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will
always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there
being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of
public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched,
it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame,
lest, instead of warming, it should consume." - George Washington

Quote from: gil on July 08, 2013, 09:27:12 PM

QuoteBankers Puppets?  Banking is one of the most regulated industries we have.

Well, just follow the money... Bailouts... I am outerly convinced that the government is controlled by commercial interests, mainly the banking, oil and armament industries. We are presented with candidates who answer to them on both sides. Democracy is an illusion. The bipartisan system is alike asking a child: "Do you want to go to bed at 9:00 or 9:15?" But really, the parents are calling the shots...

Gil.

Bailouts?  More like extortion.  The heads of the nine largest banks are called to Washington presented with a deal where the government does a bargain basement buy in to each, told they must sign on the spot or the government will shut them down and people have been calling that a bailout ever since.

The government made money on that deal.

Quote from: KC9TNH on July 08, 2013, 10:02:09 PM
I show up (still) for every election, even dog-catcher if it were an elected office.
That said, and given the figures Geek put forth which are solid, there must be a change in the electorate's view if that is to be the desired method. And that will not happen until some tipping point, which has not yet been reached. The "little" tipping points are being managed very well from a propaganda perspective; and people who've lost their history do not have a sense of what "a long train of abuses" looks like.*

This is still the greatest successful experience in governance (to my knowledge) thus far. For those not in a position to see a "gulch" in their lifetime or move off-shore, but who recognize the need, then they need to keep pounding a message that resonates. It doesn't have to have a perfect SWR, but it needs to resonate sufficiently to get more folks off the couch before guillotines come back in style.

I like Gil's analogy of the "bi-partisan" system.
:)


* In my opinion Vermont should be called the First State because they did that on their own with land grants from a rather congenial NH & bucked the old King while the others were still busy getting their stuff in order. (Because of whiny-arsed NY they didn't become one of "our" states until 1791.) How would such an act work out these days?

To answer your final question, it would look like secession and to have it actually be implemented, a state would have to choose secession by popular vote, not an act of the legislature as was done in 1861.

Quote from: Geek on July 09, 2013, 08:52:29 AM
The government made money on that deal.

Concur. Therein lies a core problem; they are not supposed to be "in business."
Whenever they see any revenue it goes back to feed their trough. If they can't find any because of their "ways & means" of operating, they will cast about for a new one. How about a new "room tax" on local lodging, or a new "fuel tax". Too many local governments do not see that treating their Chamber of Commerce as the enemy does no one any good.

I saw that in DoD through decades of the latest re-invention of the original Lockheed Zero Defects program (which worked because of the horizontal dynamics of the company). They keep trying to invoke new productivity measures that strangle by distracting from operational issues. If gov't agencies would get off this fad of trying to emulate profit centers in a draconian vertically-oriented structure and go back to regarding them as work centers they would, in my view:

a.  cost less
b.  be less willing to foray into areas that are out of their lane and foster...
c.  a public intolerance of such adventures unless absolutely necessary.  (This runs the gamut from sticking your neck too far up some anti-energy non-profiteer's rectum, to making the decision to go to war.)

Might also foster a public examination of those agencies that could completely go away. There are many, and I'm willing to read about the temporary unemployment spike - boo-hoo, but in a non-grumpy kinda way.  8)

Is it an alternative to gut an entire corporate division (Congress) for cause, to wit:

Failure to achieve a core Constitutional performance objective for which they were hired, i.e., budget management, while they use company time to explore areas that are only their concern because they gave themselves the latitude, rather than their boss?

Or maybe the boss needs to wake up from their long lunch.

Thanks for the comment on Vermont, which is why Vermont worked - there was not yet a monster Federation to tell them no.  Popular vote or not I believe the glacier in the beltway today would call that sedition. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.  One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter kinda thing.

:)

My point was that referring to "Bailouts" and accusing bankers of controlling the government, when what actually happened was using a crisis as an excuse to fleece the banks, is not only incorrect, but leads one to desire the exact opposite of the changes needed.

I am not as familiar with the other industries mentioned similarly, so I restricted my comments to banks.  However, I suspect those industries are no more in control than the banks.  Looking at BP and how their horrible accident has been used to take money out of the company looks to me like another government extortion scheme, but as I said I am less familiar with that industry than banking.

Quote from: Geek on July 09, 2013, 02:30:50 PM
My point was that referring to "Bailouts" and accusing bankers of controlling the government, when what actually happened was using a crisis as an excuse to fleece the banks, is not only incorrect, but leads one to desire the exact opposite of the changes needed.

OK, trackin' your thought I believe. "Never let a crisis go to waste" kinda thing?

Quote from: KC9TNH on July 09, 2013, 04:01:51 PM

Quote from: Geek on July 09, 2013, 02:30:50 PM
My point was that referring to "Bailouts" and accusing bankers of controlling the government, when what actually happened was using a crisis as an excuse to fleece the banks, is not only incorrect, but leads one to desire the exact opposite of the changes needed.

OK, trackin' your thought I believe. "Never let a crisis go to waste" kinda thing?

Yes.  The government completely screwed up the economy, blamed the banks for idiotic government policies that caused the crisis, then pulled off an extortion scheme and blamed the victims of that scheme for the whole thing!

Machiavelli would be proud.

Quote from: Geek on July 09, 2013, 02:30:50 PM
My point was that referring to "Bailouts" and accusing bankers of controlling the government, when what actually happened was using a crisis as an excuse to fleece the banks, is not only incorrect, but leads one to desire the exact opposite of the changes needed.

Hence the governmental response to the "crisis" which actually creates so much regulation that only the folks intended to profit from fleecing - profit from fleecing.

While Caveat Emptor springs to mind (as does the line my grandmother used to repeat often: "if something is too good to be true, it usually is")...I cannot tell you how I marveled at the unbelievable sight of:

Tim Geihtner - President of the NY Federal Reserve - the regulatory body in charge of behavioral oversite of the Wall Streets trading houses at the time of the financial meltdown - was named Treasury Secretary immediately after Obama took office.

Geihtner put forward a name for his top aid for congressional approval - Gary Gensler, a former Goldman Sachs executive - with the appointment, Gensler was put in charge of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

Jack Lew - current Treasury Secretary - was the COO of Citigroup during the financial meltdown. Citigroup got bailed out after it's investors lost $65 billion in write-downs for troubled assets and charges to account for future losses. More than half of that amount stems from mortgage-related securities.

The deeper you go - the more "regulators" that were supposed to warn the public about any looming financial crises - completely whiffed during the meltdown - are all over the economic advisory councils and the treasury. They've written or advised On the policies that became law.

...so following the money on this thing kinda drove home the point that folks - who are betting their life's savings on the rise & fall of some etherial stock portfolio - either aren't paying attention, or are completely ignorant about how the stock market actually works.

Quote from: Geek on July 09, 2013, 02:30:50 PMI am not as familiar with the other industries mentioned similarly, so I restricted my comments to banks.  However, I suspect those industries are no more in control than the banks.  Looking at BP and how their horrible accident has been used to take money out of the company looks to me like another government extortion scheme, but as I said I am less familiar with that industry than banking.

Exactly, with the exception that - while I agree it wasn't the "little" private banks that caused this - the culprits are banks. Central banks - those that were built to manipulate cash to fight inflation. The Federal Reserve's accumulation of power caused this - and since they have all this power laying around...its a good bet that they're still at it...
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In order to finish a revolution, you have to have money. My bet is, if you could follow the "shorts" you'd know what happened.

The stock market was ginned-up, getting every poor Slob with a 401k, money market fund, etc.,to go "all in", and siphoning off the wealth these folks invested - by betting against the market and the dollar.

Someone - or more precisely, groups of someone's - made trillions...in 2008.

It's my belief, that after running the market back up in 2013 - without any statistical economic data to support the "Dow15k" - its about to happen, again.

It's just supposition on my part - after two previous "market corrections" which found me losing all of my 401k, we made a decision to invest in stuff that was easier to understand...I didn't get hurt the last time (unless you count the resulting loss in  equity in my home, 40% price increases on everything we need for our daily existence over the past 5 years) - as I've decided the real financial security is not to hold any debt.


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Quote from: White Tiger on July 09, 2013, 06:53:21 PM- as I've decided the real financial security is not to hold any debt.

Check.  ;)  For the average person, probably pretty instrumental factor in being able to retire & not end up stocking produce the following Monday.  ;D

Quote from: White Tiger on July 09, 2013, 06:53:21 PM
In order to finish a revolution, you have to have money. My bet is, if you could follow the "shorts" you'd know what happened.

The stock market was ginned-up, getting every poor Slob with a 401k, money market fund, etc.,to go "all in", and siphoning off the wealth these folks invested - by betting against the market and the dollar.

Someone - or more precisely, groups of someone's - made trillions...in 2008.

It's my belief, that after running the market back up in 2013 - without any statistical economic data to support the "Dow15k" - its about to happen, again.

It's just supposition on my part - after two previous "market corrections" which found me losing all of my 401k, we made a decision to invest in stuff that was easier to understand...I didn't get hurt the last time (unless you count the resulting loss in  equity in my home, 40% price increases on everything we need for our daily existence over the past 5 years) - as I've decided the real financial security is not to hold any debt.


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Speaking of shorts, in 2007 the uptick rule, originally put in place during the Depression, was removed.  This was one reason why the housing collapse was able to transmit into the stock market so quickly and why we still have so much volatility in the stock market.

It would be beneficial to long term investors, such as those investing via 401(ks) to have less volatility.  However, the SEC has been on a single minded quest since the mid-1970s to force "better prices", without recognizing that the cost of "better prices" is volatility.  Removal of the uptick rule was an example of this thinking.