We recently moved to the country and are in the process of getting our retreat situated. Most of our extended family lives within 45 miles of our location and each other (suburbs of a larger city). While I am quite preparedness-minded, the rest of our relatives are not. If/when standard communications fail, I would like to have a backup system in place that I can use to reach them.
An obvious solution would be to get everyone licensed and we could all communicate via repeaters in the area. But we're talking about 5 separate families, 20 or so people. That just isn't going to happen. What I'd like to do is give each family a radio and say: "if something ever happens and you can't call us, turn this on..."
Getting to my question.. What would be a reasonable setup (both base station and end-users) that could a) span a distance of 45 miles and b) not require licensing/technical saavy?
I can't depend on repeaters in the area without knowing their energy source. I would be willing to invest in any amount of equipment on our own property to make this happen. But i'm just not sure if having the repeater here would make any difference to low-power transceivers in the city.
Thanks for the input. I appreciate this forum.
Hello,
I am sure more experienced members will comment, but here are my thoughts... Had you mentioned 20 miles or 300, the choice would be easy. 45 miles, not so sure... If you used 2m radios, you would need some power and antennas up high. Yagi antennas would be best, but then you have to point them in the desired direction. SSB would undoubtedly work better than FM for that purpose. The problem here is that it gets a bit complex and costly for someone who isn't into Ham radio. A regular antenna at a good height might work. I would maybe get FT-2900Rs which output 75W. Not sure it would work though over that distance...
40m might be a better choice with an NVIS (Near Vertical Incidence Skywave) antenna. It might not work all the time, but mostly I think it would. A general class license is required though, but it isn't hard to get, and only one person per family needs it for the intended purpose. Of course, for real emergencies, a license wouldn't matter, but in the mean time you need to practice... For 40m on a budget, I would say MFJ-9440X.
Gil.
My suggestion would be GMRS or possibly old school CB. Although I am partial to Ham radio, unless you can get everyone on board about getting a license (a daunting task, I know), then one of these may be your best chance of covering the distances.
CB is great, but you have the problem of atmospheric conditions. When the band is open and you have "skip" rolling in, local communication can be a challenge. Although 45 miles on CB is quite possible, beams are usually needed for that distance. With beams you have the problems of not hearing those off to the sides, a tower, rotator, etc. You can always power the radios via a deep cycle battery, but the rotator requires 120v, which may not be available during many emergencies, so an inverted will also be required. Terrain can also be a factor at those distance. If you decide to try CB, I would suggest marking everyone's location on a map, and determine which families may need a beam antenna, and which ones would be more central and be able to get by with a ground plane. Forget CB hand held radios. They are generally battery hogs, and the distance that they cover are only about as good as a FRS radio.
Now to GMRS. The first thing that you should know is to ignore the advertised claims of miles covered. While a GMRS radio that advertises 30 miles may actually cover that distance in open space with absolutely nothing between the two radios, in the real world it isn't going to happen. I've used "20 mile" versions that struggled to cover a mile in very lightly rolling hills and with trees. The flatter the terrain and the less trees and buildings, the better your distances will be. Also, I believe that repeaters are allowed to be used in the GMRS. You may be able to pick up a used commercial repeater, that can be programmed for GMRS, and place that at the home of a more centrally located family member. This may have to work simplex, as I have yet to come across a GMRS handheld that will operate duplex (transmit on one frequency and listen on another). Once again though, you run into the problem of powering it when power is down. Still they may be your best bet, but they too require a license for legal use (really just a fee, with no test is involved and it is good for 5 years and covers your entire immediate family). There are models that I've seen that claim a 40 mile range, and it would be interesting to put them through their paces and see what they can really do. Still, GMRS radios are fairly inexpensive and easy to use.
One last possibility, and I hesitate to mention it due to the legalities, are Marine band radios. They generally have more power, and away from the coasts, there would be a lot less people owning them to listen in or causing interference. The problem is that they are not legal for non-marine use. Of course in a true emergency, where the possible loss of life and property is involved, any radio is legal to use. Any other use, even testing them for distance, would be illegal. You still have the problem with terrain, so relying on these (untested) would be a gamble.
Which ever you decide to try, having a willing family member situated in a central location could be nice. They could act as "net control" and relay important information between family that can't contact each other directly. Having specific times for all family members to "check in" would be a good idea.
These are just my thoughts. YMMV
For VHF/UHF, this might help: http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html
We have FT-2900's, base and mobile. Diamond F23 @ 45' for the base. At 5w or 75w the range is the same, about 15 miles. Most of my experience is with VHF, so I won't guess at the solution except to say VHF probably isn't it - unless some member of your group lives atop a hill with none between them and rest of you.
Thanks Frosty for that great link!
About CB, the problem is that a beam antenna is huge, and not everyone can or wants to set-up such a monster on their roof... A beam antenna for a 2m SSB radio is much, much smaller...
Gil.
Well... yes and no. I offer this only as a matter of perspective, and not to be argumentative.
My Maco three element CB antenna is 11'6" long. My M2 2M18XXX 2m beam is (was) 36' 6" long. It just depends on what one is looking for in an antenna. A three element CB beam can usually cover the 45 mile distance without much of a strain in most terrains.
Added later: I also forget that a lot of people these days live with HOA restrictions. Having never done so, I tend to forget that almost any type of antennas are forbidden.
A clearer statement of your specific needs would probably help others advise on this. Is that 45 miles line of sight, or highway miles? Seems like a stupid question, but those of us not used to it don't imediately think about the difference. What kind of terrain must you cover? Where I live 45Mi on the highway is usually only 15mi LOS, and accross hilltops CB will usally do that. Some years back a group of coon hunters got busted for using marine radios in this area, story goes that they worked alot better than CBs. There again is the legal issue.
In a SHTF situation, those repeaters that you want to rely on may not be functioning. You might want to rethink youir plans.
I have attached a geographically accurate depiction of our family's spread. Turns out the maximum distance is only 26 miles, as the crow flies.
Placing a central repeater (ie, at Family 3) is a good idea, however likely not a permanent one. I would not have access to the equipment, and therefore wouldn't be able to install backup power systems such as solar or diesel.
Quote from: MIA on September 02, 2012, 10:41:12 AM
Although 45 miles on CB is quite possible, beams are usually needed for that distance.
What would you recommend for CB equipment & antenna (both beam and general purpose). Ditto for GMRS.
Thanks for the advice!
Hello RG,
If the maximum distance is 26 miles, then CB will work, assuming it has SSB. Look at the Galaxy DX 979: http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,5.0.html (http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,5.0.html). I like my Solarcon I-Max2000 antenna, it works really well.
Since most everyone is North of you, you could use a directional antenna... Depending on how much space you have.. Yagi or quad, even a dipole.
Me, I would probably make a Moxon and set it up vertically...
Everyone would have to be polarized in the same manner however, vertical or horizontal (referring to antenna polarization).
Gil.
I believe that Gil is spot on for CB. His recommendations will probably cover the distances nicely and CB could be cheaper to set up as 12v powered base stations. The DX979 is a great radio, but don't discount some of the older SSB mobiles.
For GMRS, converted mobile business band radios would work nicely, and repeaters can be found fairly cheaply (There's a couple of Motorola's with free programming on eBay for under $200 at the time I write this). There's also the advantage of using hand held GMRS radios to communicate with the base radios at each location. But there's the problem of re-programming the repeater and radios should they loose their memory. Most require a PC, a specialized cable and program to program. So unless you purchase the programming equipment and software, it looks as though CB may be your best bet.
Quote from: MIA on September 05, 2012, 01:17:17 AM
... it looks as though CB may be your best bet.
Great! Would each family require a special antenna or would the directional antenna(s) at my location pick up standard transmissions?
Would you recommend the same radio models for all family?
Hello,
They wouldn't need a special antenna, but antennas need to be polarized the same way at both ends. A dipole for example, is usually strung up horizontally, and that is horizontal polarization. You could have a vertical dipole of course, likely an end-fed dipole.. Vertical antennas are of course vertically polarized. If you tried to contact someone who has a vertical antenna with your horizontal dipole, you'd have trouble (in line-of-sight, via skip doesn't matter). A beam antenna like a quad or Yagi can be polarized either way, depending on how you orient them. Same for a Moxon, which in my opinion is easier to build. Beam antenna are BIG. I would suggest that you equip everyone with simple vertical antennas at a good height. Later you can experiment with different one if you have difficulty contacting distant stations. When choosing your antennas (all the same model would simplify things), look at their angle of radiation. Get one that radiates as close as possible to horizontal (nothing to do with polarization here). Most manufacturers have graphs of their antenna's radiation pattern. Though for CB antennas, not always. The Solarcon IMax 2000 works great, but I think it radiates at a high angle, not sure...
Gil.
Quote from: gil on September 04, 2012, 11:23:46 PMLook at the Galaxy DX 979: http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,5.0.html (http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,5.0.html).
Hi Gil, I read your review. It doesn't sound like DX979 is all that great. I prefer to buy quality, obviously i want these machines to last. What would you recommend for a budget of say $200-300?
Hello rg,
I don't think you will be gaining much by spending more on a CB radio. The only more expensive ones are the fake "10m" CBs, which you can buy but are illegal. The Galaxy does everything a CB is going to do, and legally... I would suggest getting it, then saving a bit of money for a Ham radio. You can get an awesome HF radio on Ebay for $200. The license isn't hard to get.
Gil.
The pic is gone (edit: NM, see it now). You were the furthest one out rg? The others between about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock from your location and the furthest 26 miles out? You mentioned $200-$300 (X5?). I might think about putting most of the $1500 into a tower or mast at your end, and get something like a $300 10/11/12m 50w export rig with a directional beam. Get a second standard SSB CB and see what kind of distance you're getting before buying all 5 sets, and maybe being disappointed. Least you've got a decent base to build from, and a mobile, if it doesn't work out. Assumes you don't live in an apartment or HOA tho. For SHTF use only, of course.
Like Frosty says, spending more on a good antenna makes better sense. Export rigs are illegal (do not suggest it). Using a high gain antenna, you could multiply your output power. Placing the antenna higher will also give you much better results. Also, using horizontally polarized antennas (dipole, Yagi, quad) will cut down the noise compared to verticals.
Gil.
Quote from: gil on September 11, 2012, 09:10:13 PM
Like Frosty says, spending more on a good antenna makes better sense. Export rigs are illegal (do not suggest it). Using a high gain antenna, you could multiply your output power. Placing the antenna higher will also give you much better results. Also, using horizontally polarized antennas (dipole, Yagi, quad) will cut down the noise compared to verticals.
Gil.
Ok, i guess there's nothing left than to get a couple units and start DXing. Are export rigs illegal due to the wattage or some other reason? I have no restrictions where i live and plenty of land to set up the antenna (although I will probably mount to the roof and gain the ground height).
QuoteAre export rigs illegal due to the wattage or some other reason?
Both power and frequency range... As far as I know just having them on the premises is illegal, even if you are not transmitting! Same goes for CB RF amps.
Gil.
Wow. this whole topic sounds like one WA4STO and I played out a couple of months ago!?
If I had to bet, I would apply "White Tiger's rule of 10k"...that is; "if you're thinking it - there are probably 10,000 people kind-sorta similar to you, thinking the exact same thing..." (...and since there's actually no way to prove my theory - there's also no way to DISprove it - so it must be right)!
Anyway, here's what we came to - I have almost an identical situation listed by rg in the OP. About 4 to 5 families (let's call them "the in-laws) within 20 to 40 miles of each other - but I have an addional problem - the other side (lets call them the Outlaws) of the family consisting of 6 very important people comprising 3 familes, nearly 500 miles away!?
Gil mentioned NVIS - which in my opinion is THE ANSWER. As I understand NVIS (thanks to more than a few conversations with Luck WA4STO) it requires a HF rig and a dipole antenna - that's pretty much it! ...now the dipole has to be erected in a specific manner to make it work (that is: hang the dipole about 7' to 8' off the ground) which severely limits what most HF hams LOVE about HF (i.e., distant signals/contacts), but it isn't something that permanently hinders you, just something that you can convert to if you ONLY ever want to have one antenna system.
Here's a QSL.net blog post/article on NVIS I found very helpful: NVIS: Near Vertical Incidence Skywave (http://www.qsl.net/wb5ude/nvis/#nvisprop)
Now, remember, I'm new at this and as of this moment - UNlicensed - but from what I have read, the military really developed the use of NVIS while operating/coordinating in mountainous locations - when line-of-site gets blocked by...well...mountains. By bouncing the radio signal from the ground - nearly straight up - the beam is then reflected/refracted back down towards the antenna - but in circlar radiation pattern - and because of the steep reflected angles - the covered area is now a giant circle between 0 to 300 miles around the antenna- filling in the gaps that line-o-sight can't get around (see, you're not hindered by line of sight - if you're coming down from above)!
As I see it -here are the pro's & con's we came to in our discussions - and further reading (and the linked article) seem to confirm:
Positives:
1) Simple, lowest cost HF antenna system can be employed - AND it does not require a tuner.
2) Relative ease in setting up the antenna - as it only has to be as high as 7' or 8' off the ground (throw that dipole over a tree branch)!
3) Short pathways mean less path loss (D layer signal absorption)
4) Clearer signals as short path = less interference
The drawbacks:
1) It apparently can only be "worked" from 2 mHz to 10 mHz - requiring HF - and if you're using SSB-voice that = a little more expensive rig(s).
2) If you do NOT have BOTH transmitting and receiving antenna's of the group set up for NVIS - it won't work.
3) If you do have the antenna's set up the same - you won't be DXing. Because you lose the flexibility of those shortwaves by limiting their effective range to only 30 to 600 miles (although, it is easily RE-configurable as it only requires a change to you simple dipole configuration.
4) You will have to experiment which frequencies work best for your group...but it sounds like for what I want to use it for - it is the most cost effective...but that may be because at least one person in each family (and their are 4 families) in my "comm group" has committed to becoming licensed...
5) Round the clock reliability will be effected by time of day (daylight vs night time propagation), meaning a couple of different frequencies will have to be used depeneding on when you will be using it to communicate.
I've never done NVIS - so I don't know any more than what I have read and discussed with a REAL radio operator - but the fact remains it is used today for the very purposes outlined by the OP - that not a lot of people use this system - has a certain OPSEC allure to it! .
Now that is if you're budget limits you to using ONE system for ALL types of communication...but if your budget allowed for more - why not have each member of your communication group use Hanheld 2 to 6 meter devices/CB's in vehicles - and HF/NVIS in your ham shack? Seems like you'd have all the bases covered for as little cost as possible!?
OK more experienced hams - please tell me where I'm wrong or have oversimplified! Because - 1) I don't want my ignorance misleading anyone 2) I plan to have an emergency "go to" antenna to use NVIS during/after stuff hitting the fan - and I have almost convinced two of the 3 other families in my comm group to buy HF rigs utilizing dipole antennas!!
Pretty well explained Tim. NVIS definitely for 500miles. Anything below 60miles, a cheap VHF mobile like the Yaesu FT-2900R (75W) and a Yagi-Uda antenna will do it. You're looking at $250 top, for both items. The issue here is also to get someone in each household to get a license. Technician, they might get, easy enough; General, for someone who is not into radio is a bit more of a hassle..
As to the dipole for NVIS, 7-8 ft. in my opinion is a bit low. You want to reduce ground losses as much as possible. But maybe I'm wrong. I know 8ft. works fine, the difference might not be worth the effort. It doesn't take much power to make contact. I had a short 625 miles QSO yesterday on 1W using CW!
You can find all-mode 2m radios on Ebay for $200. 2m SSB can get you pretty far, 200 miles...
I just got this one for $305:
(http://radiopreppers.com/images/IC271A.jpg)
Not sure if I'll ever use it, I'm not a phone guy, but you never know..
I do like to listen to people make fools of themselves on VHF FM though ::)
There is also ground wave propagation, more on 80 and 160m, but that requires a very long dipole!
Gil.
Nice rig!
for about the same money you could get yerself a Ten Tec....don't you hear those (HF) voices calling?
I have my K2 for that! Though I can't reply, since I haven't built the SSB board yet...
Gil.
Aw, Gil, that's a BEAUTIFUL rig!
I used to use the IC271a to work the satellites. Back then, they were mostly CW and SSB birds, but a few (Fuji-OSCAR 20 comes to mind) had digital BBSs on board; I've got a QSL from HS1JC in Bangkok that was for a packet BBS QSO on FO20.
Today, I'd be using that IC271 to copy the telemetry from the International Space Station's amateur radio transmissions.
Quote from: gil on September 27, 2012, 03:57:15 PM
Anything below 60miles, a cheap VHF mobile like the Yaesu FT-2900R (75W) and a Yagi-Uda antenna will do it. You're looking at $250 top, for both items.
60 miles on VHF? Not without a repeater. VHF won't bounce off the ionosphere, LOS between the antennas X 1.4 is the general rule for distance I think.
NVIS for 'area communications - roughly 0 - 350 miles out, that's a BIG pancake. I found the best frequencies of course change with season, time of day and of course - solar flux. However, the general rule is 'as high as you can go and still makethe contact, because the lower that you go, the MORE atmopsheric absorption that you have, higher noise & etc...
3.5 - 7 MHz has been most effective for me, starting with 3.5 int e mornings, until it would fade, then using 7 MHz until it would go 'long'. Naturally the 5 MHz voice allocations are excellent for NVIS, but ham 5 MHz is channelized, so not a lot of wiggle room.
OTOH during the last year and Buddy & I were rusing digital in the 3.5 MHz band and had almst 24/7 converage, with him being between 200-275 miles out, depending upon his location & antenna. The dipole was the best of the lot.
>>> Antennas: I've worked a LOT of NVIS down throght he years, and while ground losses DO increase -as Gil pointed-out - as the antenna comes closer to dirt, the 'quality' of the ground effectes that muck. For example, I live on a salt water saturated peninsula, so my ground is quite conductive. However, in open desert I have quite literally laid my wire dipole on the sand and made NVIS contact with base - about 10-12 Watts output in CW - no problem.
Lower antennas reduce much of the NOISE so there can indeed be lower signal levels, but better signal to noise ratio often more than makes-up for that.
Here's my standard NVIS in the field antenna: half wave dipole from above head level at any conveinent height when over normal or dry soil. If you can easily get it higher - fine, but you will not gain much, so remember that ANY antenna is better than no antenna. On a reliable radio path, even a 'slant wire' over a limb with a 'counterpoise' "ground" laying on the ground or even a bit over the ground is fine for the <350 miles we are talking about, thoughit's a 'fuzzy' estimation.
Have a look at actual, measured antenna exxperiments on NVIS
per antenna heights. The results will surprise you.
http://www.tactical-link.com/field_deployed_nvis.htm
Time to go play radio......
>de RadioRay ..._ ._
Thanks for the informative post RaRay (apologies, I could not resist)!
In your opinion - how high would the NVIS antenna need to be in a swampy, loamy-soiled, environment...like say the Tampa Bay area?
I'm flirting with the idea of trying for my first QSO utilizing NVIS...
Alll of this for NVIS is for a horizontal antenna, in this case a dipole. Vertical antennas have a dead zone off the end that points toward that sky, which is why you do not want to use a vertical antenna for NVIS. Over wet soil (I am on a peninsua which projects into the Chesapeake Bay...) the math ways 1/4 wave over ground. That would be roughly 32 feet on a forty meter antenna.
HOWEVER - real world experience as well as antenna modelilng software says that anything above your head -to avoid clothes lining yourself or others- is going to give you a signal UPWARD at high angle, which is what you want for NVIS.
1. Antennas lower to the ground do have higher ground losses.
2. Antennas lower to the ground receive much less noise and greatly reduce 'long range' signals, because the ground is focusing on what is received from over head (short range 0 - 350'ish miles) , rather than receiving signals which come in lower over the horizon, which you are not interested in for NVIS. This includes the noise from distant T-storms.
In Short: Having a moderately reduced received signal strength with GREATLY reduced noise, gives you a higher "signal to noise ratio". This is a GOOD thing! Example: Hearing my guy at S5 instead of S7, but with the reduced noise level from distant T-storms and medium and long range interfereing stations = success for us because I hear much more of his signal that of the interference.
Tactically: A low antenna for NVIS is :
1. Less likely to be seen/recognised as an antenna at a distance.
2. Quick to deploy/tear down, so you are able to set-up rapidly when needed and to get-out-of-Dodge, should that be necessary.
3. A low HF dipole produces far less ground wave, which can assist in avoiding accurate radio direction finding, should that even be an issue.
4. NVIS is VERY difficult to radio direction find, especially if you transmit from a valley, gorge, culvert or even in an 'urban canyon' in a city.
4.1 A 1x1 mile DF fix in rural Kanses might inculde a single farm house, while the same 'fix' in a metro area inculdes many thousands of
people, cars driving through & etc. // food for thought //
>>> Any outside antenns is better than no antenna - every time. For the ham shack at home, it's bet to have a couple of different antennas for different uses/distances. The HIGH dipole for medium & ong range, then the low dipole for enhanced NVIS as an example.
Even a 'slant wire antenna', that is a wire tossed into a tree with a wire as an antenna worked with a 'ground' wire along the ground can yield impressive results. Though far from the best, in a time pinch, you do what you have to do. If it's lunch time on the trail, sand in a sock tied to a line tossed over a limb will get the antenna wire up quickly and that way you're not carrying lead sinkers in your pack... Why carry the extra weight? //Be sure to dump the sand out of the sock before you wear it... :P //
Time for lunch and to play radio...
>Ray
>>> Here is a good sourch on a home installation to enhance local NVIS radio contacts, using a low loop.
http://www.wc5c.org/LinkClick.aspx?link=NVIS_Loop.pdf&tabid=394&mid=847
Thanks Ray, excellent article!
Did someone mention Marine Radios?
Quote from: Frosty on September 27, 2012, 08:05:13 PM
Quote from: gil on September 27, 2012, 03:57:15 PM
Anything below 60miles, a cheap VHF mobile like the Yaesu FT-2900R (75W) and a Yagi-Uda antenna will do it. You're looking at $250 top, for both items.
60 miles on VHF? Not without a repeater. VHF won't bounce off the ionosphere, LOS between the antennas X 1.4 is the general rule for distance I think.
Actually 60 miles on VHF is easily doable as long as you have moderate power (50 - 100w), a decent directional antenna,
especially on SSB. We have weekly 6m and 2m SSB nets with ops checking in from the 100+ mile range, some from quite a bit further. After about 150 miles it can get a lot tougher and requires larger antennas, more power and a degree of cooperation from propagation. Don't fall into the trap of only thinking FM when discussing VHF and higher frequencies.
You can do 200 miles on 2m SSB with a Yagi and some power... No repeater.
Gil.
Quote from: Sunflower on October 13, 2012, 12:12:10 PM
Did someone mention Marine Radios?
I hope not. Mari8ne VHF is line-of-sight (if you're lucky).
Quote from: Jonas Parker on October 16, 2012, 12:23:05 PM
Quote from: Sunflower on October 13, 2012, 12:12:10 PM
Did someone mention Marine Radios?
I hope not. Mari8ne VHF is line-of-sight (if you're lucky).
Marine band is not much different than 2 meters, being around 156 - 162 MHz. You can construct a beam (yagi) antenna and get 40 to 60 miles over most terrains without too much trouble. Of course, the flatter the terrain, the better. Add a small (100 - 200w) brick type amplifier and you can increase your capability.
I know that the book says that VHF (and up) is line of sight only, and it is true to
some extent, but in the real world it doesn't always work that way. There are ways of tweaking extra miles out of most frequencies. If conditions (financial or otherwise) restrict one's choices to a certain type of radio and/or frequencies, then it's just a matter of working with and around those limitations. Of course you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns, but there is usually that can be done to make a bit more distance.
Quote from: gil on October 15, 2012, 06:38:32 PM
You can do 200 miles on 2m SSB with a Yagi and some power... No repeater.
Gil.
Hmm...if you had a network of folks on 2m, spaced out at 100 to 150 miles apart, seems like you could have a reliable distributed (communications) network?
Yes... That is why I bought a used Icom IC-271A. Yoiu can find 2m SSB rigs on Ebay for $200, there are so many of them available... A Yagi-Uda antenna is cheap to make or buy. Add a brick type amp and you get the range.. Of course NVIS will do the same for cheaper, but there is nothing wrong with experimenting and a backup is always nice to have.
Gil.