Radio Preppers

General Category => Tactical Corner => Topic started by: KK0G on May 14, 2013, 10:01:27 PM

Title: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 14, 2013, 10:01:27 PM
As promised........

My recent backpacking trip pointed out my glaring need for a water filter because boiling water sucks!!
So who has one, what do you have, what do you like or not like about it? I used a Katadyn Hiker a few years ago on another trip, it worked fine but other than using it a few times I don't have much practical experience with it.

I'd like something that's lightweight, compact, easy to use, little to break or go wrong in the middle of nowhere; easy to replace, long lasting, inexpensive cartridges, oh it'd be nice if it was dirt cheap too. Gee I'm not asking for too much am I? 8)
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 15, 2013, 11:06:04 AM
I did a little research and I'm starting to lean towards the MSR Miniworks EX Microfilter: http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/expedition-water-treatment-and-hydration/miniworks-ex-microfilter/product (http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/expedition-water-treatment-and-hydration/miniworks-ex-microfilter/product)

It appears to be easily field repairable and cleanable with a cartridge life of around 2000 liters. I also like the fact that it will screw directly to my Camelback water bottles, I remember needing about three hands to manage two seperate hoses, a bottle and run the pump when using the Katadyn Hiker. The lever action appears to be easier to run than the reciprocating pump motion of the Katadyn also.

I've found it online for $72 with free shipping and replacement cartridges are about $40 each, not too bad of a price in my opinion. Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 12:44:39 PM
Looks to be worth the 1 lb. hauling along; < $100 pay once cry once. I might look into that since you can switch-off arms & distribute the PT (70-80 "strokes per minute").  ;D
Thanks for sharing & I've saved the link.

I know you understand the "two is one..." rule.
I'd also keep some purification tabs as part of the default kit.

Note for others & this is just some research I did:

Not all iodine (crystals, whatever) does the same thing. If you're ingesting it because you think someone's trying to make you glow in the dark, you're probably too late, please save the tinfoil for baked potatoes. For water purification purposes what you want is Tetraglycine Hydroperiodide. And this stuff is your go-to method if nothing else is feasible. I caught some notes in a Nat'l Institute of Health study that long term reliance, like 3 months, did some nasty things with thyroid performance.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: gil on May 15, 2013, 12:53:36 PM
I have a katadyn but did not take it with me on my trip. I wish I had... I wanted to keep it in my bugout bag for emergencies only, so I carried water. Way too heavy... There was a pump on site, but the water tasted aweful (sulfur), even though I used it to make tea.

I might try this: http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frandsen-LifeStraw-Personal-Water-Filter/dp/B006QF3TW4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1CAFHH32NJC08&coliid=I1OV6JWO75Y2Z9 (http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frandsen-LifeStraw-Personal-Water-Filter/dp/B006QF3TW4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1CAFHH32NJC08&coliid=I1OV6JWO75Y2Z9).

Gil.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 01:02:04 PM
Quote from: gil on May 15, 2013, 12:53:36 PMThere was a pump on site, but the water tasted aweful (sulfur), even though I used it to make tea.
Yep, even if it's "potable" we can sometimes run aground because there are different things in the new water from what our system is used to. Not bad, just different. I've seen guys on our long-weekend fishing trips - who normally drink their good tap water at home - switch to bottled water for the trip and find themselves in the opposite of "a bind" if you know what I mean, just from the change.

If you can't have what your system is used to play the zero-sum game of filtering or killing everything & make it as neutral as possible.
As Crocodile Dundee said, "it tastes like s**t but you can live on it."
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: gil on May 15, 2013, 01:13:18 PM
Quotegood tap water

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Gil.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 15, 2013, 01:33:22 PM
Quote from: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 12:44:39 PM
I know you understand the "two is one..." rule.
I'd also keep some purification tabs as part of the default kit.

Yep, and after I get a filtration system I'll be following the "three is one rule" since I already carry tabs and of course boiling is still an option as I always have my pot. Tabs are my last resort though, makes for nasty tasting water but it sure beats dehydration.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
Quote from: gil on May 15, 2013, 01:13:18 PM
Quotegood tap water

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Gil.
Not up here.   ;)
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 15, 2013, 01:46:40 PM
Quote from: gil on May 15, 2013, 12:53:36 PM
I have a katadyn but did not take it with me on my trip. I wish I had... I wanted to keep it in my bugout bag for emergencies only, so I carried water. Way too heavy... There was a pump on site, but the water tasted aweful (sulfur), even though I used it to make tea.

I might try this: http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frandsen-LifeStraw-Personal-Water-Filter/dp/B006QF3TW4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1CAFHH32NJC08&coliid=I1OV6JWO75Y2Z9 (http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frandsen-LifeStraw-Personal-Water-Filter/dp/B006QF3TW4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1CAFHH32NJC08&coliid=I1OV6JWO75Y2Z9).

Gil.

The Life Straw looks like it would be great for emergency use - extremely lightweight, compact and cheap. I may add that to my BOB, thanks for the link. What I'm looking for for backpacking though is something more user friendly that will allow me to fill empty bottles at my convenience such as when crossing streams while on the trail.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: s2man on May 15, 2013, 02:46:30 PM
The only time I've used a pump type was on one trip.  I concur with the 'three hands' issue.

I got a straw for my BOB, which can also attach to a bottle so gravity can do some of the work for me.  I like that.  Sorry, its in the bag and I don't recall the brand.  Katadyn Base Camp model uses gravity, and I think there are some made to fit Camelbacks.  I would guess an empty bladder plus filter would weigh less than a hard-case, pump type of filter.

For home prep's, I have not found anything which makes clean water as cheaply as the Katadyn Siphon model.  No case, no pump, just a filter and a hose.  You'll need a couple of 5-gallon buckets (or similar) to use it.  But for $65 it'll filter 5,300 gallons of water for  $.012 / gal.  That is half the cost of the closest competitor, I found.  And when you get into personal sized filters, or straws, you are talking .20-.40 / gal.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
s2man, thanks for the insights, especially on the cost with the gravity-types.

Chris, quick office survey from those that use them:
Katadyn Vario 1 vote
MSR 2 votes. (when queried about why one MSR user mentioned "the way the little spring thingy on the hose keeps the end out of the muck" as well as ease of cleaning, imagine they're all mostly pretty easy nowadays.)

Funny how a little topic like this can stop a whole office; was kinda funny.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 15, 2013, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
s2man, thanks for the insights, especially on the cost with the gravity-types.

Chris, quick office survey from those that use them:
Katadyn Vario 1 vote
MSR 2 votes. (when queried about why one MSR user mentioned "the way the little spring thingy on the hose keeps the end out of the muck" as well as ease of cleaning, imagine they're all mostly pretty easy nowadays.)

Funny how a little topic like this can stop a whole office; was kinda funny.

Awesome! Thanks for doing a survey Wes.

Google is turning up a lot of positive reviews on the MSR, it appears to be a very popular filter among the back country community. Hopefully this popularity translates into replacement cartridges and spare parts being readily available well into the future.

One disadvantage of the MSR is apparently it's ceramic filter is fragile and can easily break if dropped or beat on, but since I also carry a QRP rig that doesn't exactly like being tossed around and I manage to not break it, I don't see this as a huge problem. Unless someone comes up with a compelling reason not to, I'm strongly leaning towards the MSR and will likely purchase one within the next few weeks.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 15, 2013, 03:52:52 PM
Quote from: KK0G on May 15, 2013, 03:41:57 PMOne disadvantage of the MSR is apparently it's ceramic filter is fragile and can easily break if dropped or beat on, but since I also carry a QRP rig that doesn't exactly like being tossed around and I manage to not break it, I don't see this as a huge problem. Unless someone comes up with a compelling reason not to, I'm strongly leaning towards the MSR and will likely purchase one within the next few weeks.
The guy that was really high on the MSR did mention, RE the filter element, that he doesn't even clean it quite the recommended way 'cause it might be too abrasive as depicted, but just a soft scrubby or something. He went through a stage in his younger years when he was an equipment geek, and goin' through SFAS when he was on active-duty, blah, and has drunk swamp water through that MSR. Anyway, seems they're all pretty competitive as to features & pricing.

#1 son did mention the one thing he'd have done different at time of purchase for his Katadyn was to get an extra filter or 2 because, like most things, they don't go down in price as the clock moves. Imagine that plays regardless of brand.


Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Joe on May 16, 2013, 01:02:55 PM
I have and have used the Katadyn Vario. The water I filtered was from a stream and is very clear. For me I would not call it a extreme test. Water tasted good, and no problems after drinking it. But I also drink well water on a regular basis.

I made a gravity fed filter system with 5 gallon buckets and Berkey filters half the price as a whole Berkey. I used these directions as a guide. http://www.alpharubicon.com/kids/homemadeberkeydaire.htm. Tested using same source as the Katadyn.

I went with both these set up's after my "camping friends" and I debated the different filter systems. We wanted to all have the same systems so everything will interchange.

Midway USA has the Vario on sale for $74.99. You can probley find it cheaper but I have not looked.

In my 24HR bag I carry one of the emergency straws and water tabs, I haven't tried the straw yet, and probably never will but I have it just incase.

The filter I am currently looking at adding is a Aquamira Frontier Pro to use with my bladder packs. It only has alife of 50 Gal before cleaning, and can be used as a gravity system. http://aquamira.com/military/frontier-pro-filter-system/

72 Joe
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: s2man on May 16, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
I want to build a homemade Berkey, too, or at least have all the parts on hand in case it is needed.  I like the Berkey filters because they have activated charcoal in addition to the ceramic filter.  That may be useful if rainwater is collected from a composite roof, or for other chemical contamination of surface water.

Does anyone know if any of the backpacking filters come with charcoal?  It wouldn't be needed in a wilderness situation, but I would expect petroleum or ag. chemical contamination in any stream near humans... 
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 16, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
The Aquamira Frontier Pro looks interesting but unfortunately it only works as a straw or gravity feed, I'd much rather pump my bottles full of clean water and be on my way. I do like the price though.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Joe on May 16, 2013, 04:01:09 PM
Quote from: s2man on May 16, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
I want to build a homemade Berkey, too, or at least have all the parts on hand in case it is needed.  I like the Berkey filters because they have activated charcoal in addition to the ceramic filter.  That may be useful if rainwater is collected from a composite roof, or for other chemical contamination of surface water.

Does anyone know if any of the backpacking filters come with charcoal?  It wouldn't be needed in a wilderness situation, but I would expect petroleum or ag. chemical contamination in any stream near humans...

The Katadyn Vario has active charcoal in main filter, the MSR Miniworks has carbon in main filter. Both perform the same the differance is cost, Katadyn runs about $45.00, MSR $40.00.

Quote from: KK0G on May 16, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
The Aquamira Frontier Pro looks interesting but unfortunately it only works as a straw or gravity feed, I'd much rather pump my bottles full of clean water and be on my way. I do like the price though.

My thought on it was to still fill my bladders with the Vario, but have the frontier pro hooked on to my feed line. Incase I have something growing in the system. It may seem redundant, but not knowing if or when I will be able to propperly clean my bladders it would be some added insurance.

Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 16, 2013, 09:34:37 PM
Well I just ordered an MSR Miniworks from Als Sports http://www.alssports.com/Product.aspx?pf_id=10126805 (http://www.alssports.com/Product.aspx?pf_id=10126805), they were by far the cheapest I found at $63. They have free shipping on orders over $75 so I picked up a replacement element for $27 which was also the cheapest I found. This was considerably less money than anywhere else so I thought I'd pass it on if anyone else was interested.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Joe on May 17, 2013, 09:40:13 AM
Good find !!! At that price I might have to pick one up to keep in the truck.

Thank you for the link.

Joe
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KC9TNH on May 17, 2013, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: KK0G on May 16, 2013, 09:34:37 PM
Well I just ordered an MSR Miniworks from Als Sports http://www.alssports.com/Product.aspx?pf_id=10126805 (http://www.alssports.com/Product.aspx?pf_id=10126805), they were by far the cheapest I found at $63. They have free shipping on orders over $75 so I picked up a replacement element for $27 which was also the cheapest I found. This was considerably less money than anywhere else so I thought I'd pass it on if anyone else was interested.
THAT was a great score. Nice job & thanks for sharing the link; time to pound that.
8)
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Quietus on May 19, 2013, 04:08:58 PM
I've packed a "Sweetwater Guardian" filter and spare cartridge for about ten years.  MSR has apparently bought out Sweetwater, now it's called the MSR  Guardian.  Haven't needed to use it much.  I pack a couple of paper coffee filters and bread ties to secure a cut-down coffee filter to the intake head.  This, in order to help cut the need for filter replacement.
 
When the current easy times of internet ordering of such things comes to an end, it will be a good thing to be able to construct a larger water filter for personal and household use.  I imagine that plans for this are all around the internet.  I got mine in print prior to that from one of the paperback books that a guy named Don Paul wrote and published via primitive computer printing some time back.   (OMG, that's so '90s!)
 
His advice was for use with 55-gal drums, but the filter can be downsized considerably.  Five gallon buckets would work real fine.  Now, might be a handy time to plumb in a bucket lid for hose intake, and the bottom of the bucket for hose outlet.  Inside the bucket, is a multi-layered mix of coarse rock, smaller rock, gravel, and sand.  I'd be wanting to make the lowest layer out of smashed up charcoal briquettes, a bag of them would probably last the lifetime of the filter maker.  (As to that "lifetime" prediction, I think that other events other than water purification may intrude.)
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: RadioRay on May 19, 2013, 09:36:01 PM
For me - water purifiers for backpackers changed my world.  Suddenly, if it were something less than mud, I could convert it to good drinking water.  Previously you could boil it, making it dead water with all the same trash in it, but dead . . .   or USP iodine crystals, which also works well and I've never had a goiter, but was drinking chemically treated 'dead water'    :o    but the first time that we extracted water from green, last summer water that had mostly evaporated froma  low spot between peaks , viola! good , clean and SAFE water.


//Don Paul = good reads.  I probably still have some of his books.  It's not the technology he wrote about  at the time, but the thought process for 'Great Living in Grubby Times' that makes them a good read - even today. Some things are a little overboard, but then again, who wants to pay for 'under board' ?  ha ha//


73 de RadioRay ..._ ._
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Geek on May 19, 2013, 10:05:28 PM
While the filters you all are discussing are fine for camping or short term use I am trying to prep for a long term bug in situation.  Assuming you have water and just need to make it safe, you need something very cheap to remove any impurities and something to kill any bacteria.  Coffee filters are extremely cheap, so storing a bunch of those is simple.  Boiling works for the bacteria, or if you want to go with our ancestors solution, drop a small amount of rum in the water.  It could be any kind of hard liquor, but rum is traditional.  About a shot per gallon works.

Each of our bug out bags has a flask for just this purpose.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Mitch on May 20, 2013, 08:26:22 AM
Just my opinion for a long term bug in situation:

For filtration look into 5 galIon bucket gravity filters (homebrew options).
For purification look into how to make bleach from pool Shock chemicals.

You can use the bleach to regularly refresh your substrates (deter crud growth) in the buckets.
You can easily stockpile this solution and not have to worry so much about the shelf life of bleach.
Reserve your activated Carbon and UV setups for getting ultra pure water for medical or occular use.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Geek on May 20, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Dry pool chemicals, e.g. HTH store better than Clorox and have a higher concentration of chlorine.  Watch your concentrations but otherwise more effective than bleach.  Personally, I'd prefer to store Rum.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: gil on May 20, 2013, 05:26:20 PM
A 50 gallon plastic barrel is also good to have to collect rain water...

I had nothing but rain water left on my last camping day, and it was more than welcome!
I would make sure mosquitoes can't lay eggs in it though...

Gil.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: KK0G on May 20, 2013, 08:01:18 PM
Wow, that was pretty fast shipping, ordered it late Thursday night and it arrived today.......and it was free!
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: Frosty on May 21, 2013, 06:28:51 AM
Quote from: Geek on May 20, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Dry pool chemicals, e.g. HTH store better than Clorox and have a higher concentration of chlorine.  Watch your concentrations but otherwise more effective than bleach.  Personally, I'd prefer to store Rum.

Agreed - and both have other uses besides water purification so more bang for your buck too.  Another multi-use option is povidone-iodine (Betadine).  An antiseptic for wounds, can be used topically as a replacement for KI/KIO3 tablets to block intake of radioactive iodine, and for water purification.  2-page pdf with the bleach/betadine to water ratios:  www.getreadygear.com/pdfdocs/Water-Purification-And-Storage.pdf
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: s2man on May 21, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
Quietus, it sounds like you are describing a slow sand filter.  Slow is the key word.  Good bacteria colonize the sand and devour bad critters as they slowly pass by.  They must be kept full and it takes several days for the bacteria to colonize the substrate.  This requires a large filter to get a good throughput.  My Water Storage book says they produce 1/5 to 1/3 of a gallon per hour per sq ft of surface area.  Using the average of 1/4 gallon, a 5 -gallon bucket would produce 1.5 pints per hour and a 55-gallon drum would produce 2.75 qts per hour.

Don't forget the sari filter, folks.  Eight layers of linen.  Older is better as the broken fibers catch more stuff.  This is supposed to trap 98% of the critters.  If filtering our water becomes necessary, I plan to pre-filter with a sari (old bed sheet, I don't actually have a sari ;-) to reduce the biological and sediment load on the ceramic filters.

Best case scenario, I will still have 12V to run my marine water pump and use the RO filter. 
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: gil on May 21, 2013, 02:38:18 PM
QuoteMy Water Storage

Hi, is this an actual book?

You guys are going to make me spend money again!  ::)

Gil.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: s2man on May 22, 2013, 07:12:25 AM
Yes, Water Storage: Tanks, Cisterns, Aquifers, and Ponds by Art Ludwig

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Storage-Emergency-Use---Ferrocement/dp/0964343363/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369220192&sr=1-10&keywords=rain+water

I also liked "Rainwater Collection for the Mechanically Challenged"

A cistern is on my long wish list, but I'll probably put in an above-ground swimming pool with the ability to route rain water to it, in the interim.  Small, affordable prep's are in place. Now, I am stuck trying to do more costly projects like root cellar, greenhouse, solar, etc..  Medical expenses keep taking away my savings toward these items.
Title: Re: Water filter
Post by: medic photog on September 07, 2013, 08:27:00 AM
I've used the MSR mini water works filter for years and it  is great, never gave us a problem any where we went. For a base filter, I'd look at the several different ones made from the five gallon buckets or even a much larger ceramic unit, can't remember the name of it though.