Info from the hinterlands

Started by WA4STO, February 25, 2013, 11:23:27 am

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WA4STO

February 25, 2013, 11:23:27 am Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:06:17 am by WA4STO
I often forget that some members of our 'little' group here do not have digital mode capability and thus may be missing some of the more interesting (to me at least!) info that burbles its way to the screen.

-

madball13


White Tiger

I would imagine this requires quite a bit of time? I am traveling more now and havent even had the time to get my antenna back up and operational yet...
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

Frosty

Curious how encrypted (obvious and maybe less obvious) messages are handled once they hit the system for transmission.  Does the software screen out "-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----" emails for example, or is that left to the operator sending it (assuming they screen them at all)?   Or is encryption OK and I'm just misunderstanding the regs? 

WA4STO

Quote from: White Tiger on February 26, 2013, 01:21:13 am
I would imagine this requires quite a bit of time? I am traveling more now and havent even had the time to get my antenna back up and operational yet...


Tim - not precisely sure what you were referring to, so I'll be 'general' in my response.

When it came to getting on WINMOR and participating in WINLINK, I found that it took no additional time at all, except for a very few minutes to install the RMS EXPRESS software. 

But, then, I already had the HF radio, the antenna, and the modem, which differs from your present situation.  Still, mode-wise, there was nothing time-consuming.

As for  gaining entry to the NTS(D) networks, that took some time insofar as getting the old PK232MBX for Pactor I use from the NTSD equipment bank upfitted to the latest firmware.  O.T.O.H, if I was in your neck of the woods, I think I'd very likely already have access by way of the local VHF packet nodes and digipeaters. 

For me, it was time (and not much at that) VERY well spent.  Being retired, and rather bored, I'd been looking for something to do.  Now I have that.  Every day.  Cool.

73 de Luck, WA4STO

RadioRay

February 26, 2013, 04:17:32 pm #5 Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:22:09 pm by RadioRay
E-mail over radio systems like WINMOR actually require very little time, because the system(s) operate 24/7 and often scanning more than one band.  So, you can generally send/receive your messaging & bulletins when it's convienent for YOU. Unlike a radio 'net' that meets daily where you have to wait until it's your turn to speak, with this e-mail over radio - just like 'regular e-mail', you're on & off the air quickly. NONE of that #1 trouble in group radio comms:  Getting everyone on the same time and frequency. 

As for PGP and etc. , that is 100% self restraint.  You do not transmit crypto in ham radio for the same reason that you obey other regulations: simply because it's either a good idea to obey or it's not worth the possible hassle.  If the situation changes and there is a genuine need for crypto and you believe that it's worth the possible hassle (by 'hassle' I mean a visit from the FCC or an emission seeking missle entering your ham shack - depending upon the severity of the situation)   :o  then you can send your crypto message like any other file.  (yes - like any other file).  The WINMOR system does not know the difference between text, pics, or anything else that can be digitized, because 'bits are bits'. 

The software is FREEware and just about any voice capable radio made in the last 20 years can probably operate at least basic WINMOR, the prefered mode is HF SSB. If you can run PSK-31 - the MOST common digital mode - you'll likely be able to operate WINMOR, with the same equipment and the RMSexpress FREEware.


de RadioRay ..._ ._
"When we cannot do the good we would, we must be ready to do the good we can."  ~ Matthew Henry

Frosty

Quote from: RadioRay on February 26, 2013, 04:17:32 pm
As for PGP and etc. , that is 100% self restraint.  You do not transmit crypto in ham radio for the same reason that you obey other regulations: simply because it's either a good idea to obey or it's not worth the possible hassle.  If the situation changes and there is a genuine need for crypto and you believe that it's worth the possible hassle (by 'hassle' I mean a visit from the FCC or an emission seeking missle entering your ham shack - depending upon the severity of the situation)   :o  then you can send your crypto message like any other file.  (yes - like any other file).  The WINMOR system does not know the difference between text, pics, or anything else that can be digitized, because 'bits are bits'. 


Not to sidetrack/highjack the thread, but that "prohibited transmissions" section confuses me constantly. I guess, hypothetically, I could send a PGP encrypted email to a winlink address via the internet, and once it was confirmed received by the recipent via HF, report the RMS station that sent it to the FCC as being in violation of part 97, section 113?  A local net in my area, "on a regular basis" (weekly, at 9pm), has in their net procedure to ask if anyone has radio equipment for sale or trade.  Seems like a direct violation too.

Even on Winlink email in general, if the sender has access to any other means of communicating his message (WiFi, cell phone, texting, or smart phone email), then isn't this in violation of the "could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services" rule?  I'm sure these all have been hashed out in the amateur community over the years, but the regs seem very vague and open to interpretation imo.   

White Tiger

Quote from: WA4STO on February 26, 2013, 10:54:42 am
Quote from: White Tiger on February 26, 2013, 01:21:13 am
I would imagine this requires quite a bit of time? I am traveling more now and havent even had the time to get my antenna back up and operational yet...


Tim - not precisely sure what you were referring to, so I'll be 'general' in my response.

When it came to getting on WINMOR and participating in WINLINK, I found that it took no additional time at all, except for a very few minutes to install the RMS EXPRESS software. 

But, then, I already had the HF radio, the antenna, and the modem, which differs from your present situation.  Still, mode-wise, there was nothing time-consuming.

As for  gaining entry to the NTS(D) networks, that took some time insofar as getting the old PK232MBX for Pactor I use from the NTSD equipment bank upfitted to the latest firmware.  O.T.O.H, if I was in your neck of the woods, I think I'd very likely already have access by way of the local VHF packet nodes and digipeaters. 

For me, it was time (and not much at that) VERY well spent.  Being retired, and rather bored, I'd been looking for something to do.  Now I have that.  Every day.  Cool.

73 de Luck, WA4STO
I was just wondering if local traffic depended on you having your radio on XX hours per day?
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

WA4STO

Quote from: White Tiger on February 26, 2013, 07:48:43 pm
I was just wondering if local traffic depended on you having your radio on XX hours per day?

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Nope; the infrastructure is there to serve your needs, not the other way around.

In other words, the NTS(D) network nodes are there for you to use whenever necessary.  Thus, you could use them only when you were at your BOL, or only when you were on the road, whenever, without having to worry about always being on.

Yesterday was a good example for me.  I had five outgoing messages:

MA 1
NC 2
TX 2

But I had the radio tied up with other things during the course of creating those five, and couldn't be on a specific frequency or even a specific band.

No problem.  When I had one ready to go, I tuned to the correct frequency (this one was on 40, due to propagation) connected to the message board (MBO) and let it fly.

73  de Luck, WA4STO


madball13

Quote from: WA4STO on February 25, 2013, 01:48:27 pm
Quote from: madball13 on February 25, 2013, 12:53:41 pm
how do i get on this list?


Those particular quotes came from a group that I participate in, by way of 40 meter WINMOR.  The group does not wish to allow internet-only members, but has a strong preponderance of prepper-related activity.  For them, it's radio all the way.


I have WINMOR capability. How do i participate in that group.

White Tiger

Quote from: WA4STO on February 27, 2013, 10:12:40 am
Quote from: White Tiger on February 26, 2013, 07:48:43 pm
I was just wondering if local traffic depended on you having your radio on XX hours per day?

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Nope; the infrastructure is there to serve your needs, not the other way around.

In other words, the NTS(D) network nodes are there for you to use whenever necessary.  Thus, you could use them only when you were at your BOL, or only when you were on the road, whenever, without having to worry about always being on.

Yesterday was a good example for me.  I had five outgoing messages:

MA 1
NC 2
TX 2

But I had the radio tied up with other things during the course of creating those five, and couldn't be on a specific frequency or even a specific band.

No problem.  When I had one ready to go, I tuned to the correct frequency (this one was on 40, due to propagation) connected to the message board (MBO) and let it fly.

73  de Luck, WA4STO


OK, that's what I hoped you'd say - I should probably start reading up on this then...
If you're looking for me, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

WA4STO

Quote from: WA4STO on February 25, 2013, 01:48:27 pm
If you have 40 and/or 20 WINMOR capability, then you could send an inquiry to W0ECM at his QRZ address.  Or the Maine node at KB1TCE's QRZ address in Owl's head Maine.


Madball13:  see above.

73 - LH

RadioRay

March 03, 2013, 03:50:38 pm #12 Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 03:55:54 pm by RadioRay
 "prohibited transmissions" section confuses me constantly. I guess, hypothetically, I could send a PGP encrypted email to a winlink address via the internet, and once it was confirmed received by the recipent via HF, report the RMS station that sent it to the FCC as being in violation of part 97, section 113?"  de Frosty

Good Question.  In short - technically yes.  Whether WINLINK SYSTEM has PGP sniffers to stop this or other forms of CRYPTO, I do not know.  PACTOR or WINMOR are modes /no sniffers/ - not systems and this is entirely up to the originator ad the Sysop.

"A local net in my area, "on a regular basis" (weekly, at 9pm), has in their net procedure to ask if anyone has radio equipment for sale or trade.  Seems like a direct violation too."  de Frosty

Ah! This is the old "pecunary interest" clause.  In short - you cannot operate a ham radio for money.  You cannot use it in lieu of a license for business band radio and etc.  However, the 'ruling' was that you COULD order a pizza from a business via phone patch (an actual incident) . However, the buisiness cannot advertise pizza for sale on ham radio. Small scale, one-off 'hamfest on the air' was not seen as a business activity.  This regulation came in waaaaaaay back when radio was king and business had little recource to getting their business radio license and tried to use ham radio to operate on the cheap. Not many of us today are radio-telegraphers for IBM, though I'd LOVE that job!

"Even on Winlink email in general, if the sender has access to any other means of communicating his message (WiFi, cell phone, texting, or smart phone email), then isn't this in violation of the "could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services" rule?  I'm sure these all have been hashed out in the amateur community over the years, but the regs seem very vague and open to interpretation imo."- Frosty

"Radio services"  I also have my HF marine ticket for private vessel - no passangers & etc. 'voluntarily equipped'.  I am even allowed the freq "schedules" for RTTY and CW on my slightly enhanced marine radio ticket (at my request).  For sailboat use, I use the HF as necessary for boat comms. I use the ham for 'hobby CQ'ing' and chatting with friends and etc.  The marine licens is a serious business and not 'reasonably' useful for this and in most cases it would at LEASt be a borderline infraction of the intent of my marine license. Even marine nets, such as the "Cruiseheimer's Net" ,while much personal information is passed, are a get ON and get OFF type of communications.  None of the long, drawn-out alphabetic call-ups that last for an hour & etc.  On ham - that's allowed -BOREING but allowed.

The FCC - so far - seems to understand that their enforcement must reasonably be in the spirit of the law, understanding the purpose of why these regulations were written.  Any human document is fallable and can be willfully distorted by knee-walking stooges of communist mopery   ;^)  .  Just look at any politician as they ravage our constitution, Bill of Rights and even the Declaration of Independence and you understand this.

Time for me to go.  My meds are wearing off, and The Voices are becoming LOUDER ! ! !    :o


de RadioRay ..._ ._


Ps.  My thoughts on these subjects have been given to you for NOTHING, which roughly aproximates their worth.   ;) :D ;D ::)
"When we cannot do the good we would, we must be ready to do the good we can."  ~ Matthew Henry

Frosty

I'd heard the pizza ordering example used before, but didn't realize the FCC commented/ruled on it.  Wonder if their ruling would be the same if it was done every Friday, and/or if using the autopatch just to avoid using up cellphone minutes?  That last one would be hard to prove...  Just the musings of an outsider looking in.