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Author Topic: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?  (Read 8102 times)

KK0G

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 09:33:23 PM »
That's a very interesting site............. it's way over my head but interesting none the less :o
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

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RadioRay

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 09:53:19 PM »
What is interesting is that the best system they mention is the One Time Pad.  The beauty of it is that - when used properly, it does not have even a theoretical attack method.  In short - there is no mathematical leverage point to break this system through classical cryptanalysis as long as the send/receivers follow the rules, #1 of which is never use the same 'pad' (key page) twice and destroy the key pad as soon as the message is processed.

If 'THEY' can send a disembodied remote viewer
to peer over your shoulder while projecting himself through the
'astral plan' to see your message... you're busted.  :o :o :o :o

However, on THIS planet, it's still the best security in messaging.

As for complexity, it seems so at first but if you could sit down with someone who already knows how to do it, you could be at least familiar with the mechanics of how it is done during a short lunch.  Practice & drilling in security methods surrounding this method is of course required to do it when you're dog tired, pressed for time - oh and if you're in somebody elses' country illegally - there is the STRESS of possibly being captured, tortured and etc. Back in the day, if you were a military spook, then you're doing all this for less pay than the guy who cooks French fries at McDonalds and at least HE gets to wear HIS uniform: not such a good idea for you...     >:(

So, with a pencil and paper and pe-delivered keys, you TOO could arrange for a tactical pizza delivery from deep in enemy occupied Iowa, using your KX-1!




Man - all this and radios too!



>de RadioRay ..._ ._







« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:00:41 PM by RadioRay »
"When we cannot do the good we would, we must be ready to do the good we can."  ~ Matthew Henry

WA4STO

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 10:25:14 PM »
you TOO could arrange for a tactical pizza delivery from deep in enemy occupied Iowa, using your KX-1!

>de RadioRay ..._ ._

Better than having a Papa John's drone delivering it.

Or not.  Maybe using a Huey would cause all the pepperbalognies to emigrate to the southern border.  Of the pizza box.

73

lh

KC9TNH

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2013, 04:34:55 PM »
... no backdoors, no phishing, no keyboard captures, no screen captures, no TEMPEST...


You get the point.

>de RadioRay ..._ ._
Even complete deniability for a 3rd-party courier.

TACP delivery huh? Well, that's why you're you, and I'm just the guy trying to arrange a ride out.
Salud, brutha! 8)

KK0G

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2013, 04:55:19 PM »
I read about the one time pad method, sounds very cool and I think I vaguely understand the overall concept of it but I still don't quite "get it". You're probably correct Ray, it's likely not as complex as I'm envisioning it if someone actually sat down and showed me how it works.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

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gil

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2013, 04:59:25 PM »
Quote
You're probably correct Ray, it's likely not as complex as I'm envisioning it if someone actually sat down and showed me how it works.

http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,115.0.html

Gil.

KK0G

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 07:43:47 PM »
Quote
You're probably correct Ray, it's likely not as complex as I'm envisioning it if someone actually sat down and showed me how it works.

http://radiopreppers.com/index.php/topic,115.0.html

Gil.

Awesome! Thanks Gil, now I "get it" 8)

I see it would definitely take practice to become proficient at it but it's not really all that difficult.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

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Quietguy

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »
Here's an example of why the code is realistically unbreakable, given the conditions Gil mentioned above - truly random key, key is as long as the message (key does not repeat) and the key is destroyed immediately after use.  Of course carelessness can negate all of that.

In his example Gil used Key = GEXOJ to encrypt Message = HELLO to give Cyphertext = NIIZX.  But, let's take Gil's Cyphertext as the input and combine it with replacement message text containing exactly the same number of characters as the original message and add them together.  Let's use New Message = CHILL.  So we have

Code: [Select]
  N I I Z X
+ C H I L L
  ---------
  L B A O M
 
Now if we use LBAOM as the key to decode Gil's NIIZX we get

Code: [Select]
  N I I Z X
- L B A O M
  ---------
  C H I L L
 
We have proven there are at least two keys which will give a meaningful decryption to Gil's original encrypted message - you don't know which key Gil used, so which version is right?  It's even worse... we could have created a "good" key using any word, or combination of words, as long as it is exactly as long as the original message.  Someone using an automated system to guess keys would have no way of knowing which version was the right one - was Gil just practicing encryption by saying "Hello" or was he telling an associate to "Chill" - stay put and keep a low profile.  The only way to know for sure is to know the original key, but it was destroyed immediately after encrypting the message.

Or, of course, get the information the old fashioned way by locking Gil in a little room with a big guy with a rubber hose.

Wally

WA4STO

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 07:57:54 PM »
Recently, a Petition for Rule Making (RM-11699) was made to the FCC by
Don Rolph, AB1PH, in which he proposed to allow encryption of a
transmitted signal during an emergency.  He argued that in his belief,
the open, in-the-clear transmission of health information, is a
violation of HIPAA rules (Health Insurance Portability and
Accountability Act of 1996), and such violation will keep Amateur Radio
from participating during relief efforts.
 
His understanding of HIPAA rules is erroneous as HIPAA rules do not
apply to Amateur Radio.  There has also been no known evidence of
served agencies not allowing Amateur Radio support due to privacy
issues.

While the ARRL does not normally comment on petitions for rule making,
the Executive Board felt it necessary to do so in this case.  The
League has just issued comments in opposition to Mr. Rolph?s request.


Thanks to Mike N2YBB, Hudson Division Director for the above wording and copy of the
ARRL submission.

73 Dave WB2FTX
Eastern Area Digital Coordinator
NTS Digital
Section Traffic Manager
Northern NJ

gil

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 08:07:08 PM »
When you don't use a right, you soon or later end up losing it...

Gil.

WA4STO

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 09:21:47 PM »
True; sometimes you do lose that which you fail to utilize.

But in this case, nothing is being lost, no regulations are being changed, no rights are being superceded.

Overall, a very good thing.

Best 73

Luck, WA4STO

RadioRay

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 09:57:01 PM »
HIPAA was not the basic question for me about crypto on the ham bands.  I question the politicians (our servants) being allowed to order us (The People) to not hold a private conversation on the ham radio under threat of violence for disobedience. Ultimately brute force is the reason for most obedience to politicians and our life time of conditioning is the other. Like any farm animal or possibly a house hold pet, most of us just 'go along to get along' as long as things are kept belove a certain threshold fitting the people,event and timing.  What works in NYC or Mass would be actively resisted in northern Idaho and other freedom loving areas.


As for voting:

 "It matters not who casts the votes, only who counts them." Attributed to Washington DC's "Friend"  The Butcher, Uncle Joe - Joseph Stalin. A VERY successful politician.


I for one, would love to be using whatever level of privacy I desire for MY communications, whether internet, ham radio, or phone. Naturally, laziness might draw me right back down to using no crypto at all and simply sending everything in the clear, but I do resent the impertinence of my overpaid servants - most of whom have never held real employment in their lives - telling a nation of allegedly free people such nonsense.


YMMV,
>de RadioRay ..._ ._



 
"When we cannot do the good we would, we must be ready to do the good we can."  ~ Matthew Henry

Sparks

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Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
I would like my wife and some of my friends to learn Morse code and become hams.

Then I would like to send and receive encrypted messages about everyday matters.

Instead of encrypting ourselves I would suggest using one of the codebooks in this list:

http://www.jmcvey.net/cable/scans.htm

The Captain of my first merchant marine vessel as a Radio Officer almost daily sent coded messages to his wife in Scotland. One day when delivering a radiogram to his desk I noticed a code book lying there. I took note of its title but since I didn't have access to a copy I couldn't decipher his messages. (And frankly, I couldn't care less )

Radio Preppers

Re: Should encryption be allowed on the Ham bands?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »