Anyone so new they don't even have a radio yet?

[White Tiger]

I personally like the Magnum Mini Mag for 10m...but the band isn't really very reliable...when it's working its a dream, but it doesn't work reliably...

[Geek]

Sounds like we have some disagreement on the band to use for 30 mile communications.  I take it the only way to resolve that definitively is trying each to see what works.

[White Tiger]

Sounds like we have some disagreement on the band to use for 30 mile communications.  I take it the only way to resolve that definitively is trying each to see what works.

Not really Geek - I don't use my 2m rig - so I would listen to the hams here who know what they're talking about.

My 30 year old HF radio will pick up signals very near me (0-300 miles) with just a slight readjustment of how I configure the legs of my dipole on 80m - its called NVIS (there's a thread on the board that discusses it in some detail - basically you arrange the antenna in such a way that you bounce a signal off of the ground, it shoots nearly straight up to the Ionosphere, then is deflected back to Earth n such a manner that the range is a circle with your station in the center, and you can talk to stations within the circle). As a matter of fact, there is a Florida net every week - I can hear stations near me, but I don't quite have my antenna configured correctly, as they cannot hear me. I have communicated with them via relay - other hams who can hear us both, relay the information to both parties. During an emergency that is a very valuable technique, too!

Once I get the NVIS (Near Vertical Incident Skywave) configuration correct, I can leave the other legs of my fan dipole configured in inverted V's and reach around the world, while using one of my HF bands arranged for local traffic...I can also pick-up weak signals from nearby HF stations via long path (travels around the world and I pick it up on its return journey) with my regular antenna set up, when the conditions are right.

I think HF is the way to go - its extremely versatile - which is why I selected it.

...with some help from my friends...

[Geek]

So if I use HF instead of 2m I should simply be dealing with the antenna to get a good signal at 30 miles?

[White Tiger]

Geek, yes, that's about the gist of it - ill see if I can find a link to some information regarding NVIS and post it here.

Yeah, this isn't THE article on it, but it's pretty good:

http://www.w8ne.com/Files/NVIS%20nvis_AI0W.pdf

Here is THE article (I think) on the subject:

http://www.qsl.net/wb5ude/nvis/

[WA4STO]

So if I use HF instead of 2m I should simply be dealing with the antenna to get a good signal at 30 miles?

Perhaps my particular case would be of value to you.

I have a fairly expensive nine band vertical antenna.



The first thing you will likely note is that it's huge, compared to a 2 meter antenna.  Which brings up the point that, for  a given frequency band, the size of the antenna is dramatically different from other bands.

So what's the problem?  Well the problem that I was trying to solve is that my local prepper group insists on using voice.  Thus, in order to for me to disseminate bulletins to/among them in preparation for, and in the aftermath of SHTF, I am struggling with the same thing you are, namely the EXTREME difficulty of reaching out reliably for 30 miles.  In my case, it's only 15 miles.  Still can't do it reliably on 2 meter voice, even with a fairly large 144 mHz beam, rotator, supports, etc.  Thus, HF.

80 meters is VERY reliable for that distance.  80 is one of the HF bands.  Problem with 80 is that it requires a huge antenna, in order to be resonant (extremely important).

I'll be moving in a few weeks.  In order to utilize the WINMOR networks (full error-correction, inability of third parties to successfully monitor it, etc) I'll be putting up something like this:



Yes, it's big.  Has to be, in order to be resonant way down there.  But it's incredibly cheap.  With the full-wavelength horizontal loop like that, I'll have full access to the 80 (and 40) meter WINMOR systems, AND I can easily get the 30 miles problem solved.

White Tiger (and others here) correctly point out that mounting a cheap wire antenna fairly close to the ground gives  you much better close-in signals. 

I'm saying all this in order to give you some options that will take into account, budgetary considerations, the severe problem of reliable communications at such a relatively short distance, and the fact that you DO have options.

Remember, by taking a couple of silly tests that involve our giving you all the questions and ALL the answers (in advance!)  we grant you the use of millions and millions of frequencies, all up and down the radio spectrum.  The frequencies you operate on will be key to how far you can RELIABLY provide SHTF communications to your community and the "outside world". 

We're here to help you. 

Best 73
Luck, WA4STO

[White Tiger]

Also, here's one of the threads where this tossed around (originally) by a few of us...Ray had a very informative post/summary with a link.

http://radiopreppers.com/index.php?topic=122

Also I see WA4STO posted - he guided me through most of this - he is an excellent resource!

[Geek]

This is definitely getting complex, but it seems to be the same problem everyone else is trying to solve.

As I now understand it, I am better off going up the frequency spectrum, but the negative to that is winding up with a huge antenna.  NVIS solves a few problems, but it is still a pretty long wire set up about 7' off the ground.

The implication is that I also need to learn about antennas in addition to all the background on radios, bands, frequencies, etc.  It is looking like there is a huge challenge in just getting to the point where I set up my first radio and start listening.

[gil]

Anything between 20 and 500 miles is a challenge... I can have  QSO 800 miles away using 100mW on CW but not being able to reach someone 50 miles away. Case in point, Tim and I have tried a few times, unsuccessfully. 30 miles is the maximum line-of-sight distance.. Though ground waves and other weird propagation modes can extend range without ionosphere bounce.. 2m SSB can get you 250 miles, but requires power and a beam antenna. NVIS works once you find out how to set-up your antenna, by trial and error..

Luke, would that 4x70' square loop work 20' off the ground?

Gil.

[WA4STO]

Luke, would that 4x70' square loop work 20' off the ground?

Gil.

Sure.  On 80 meters, that would definitely be NVIS in nature.

You can usually think of full-wave loops as being much like dipoles.  They work great when they're high.  But when you're trying to get close in, reliably, 20 feet up works well too.

What trips my trigger is that, once fed with open wire line, you've instantly got a multi band antenna.  A lotta guys can't wrap their heads around open wire feeders since they're no longer 'mainstream', and appear to  present problems that coaxial cable doesn't seem to.

But coax generally means ONE very very small frequency of resonance.  Plus, it has loads (sorry...) of loss. 

Open wire feeders are, uh, just plain OOOOOOGLY!



Then again, "beauty" and "eye of the beholder" and all that.

73 de Luck, WA4STO

[White Tiger]

This is definitely getting complex, but it seems to be the same problem everyone else is trying to solve.

As I now understand it, I am better off going up the frequency spectrum, but the negative to that is winding up with a huge antenna.  NVIS solves a few problems, but it is still a pretty long wire set up about 7' off the ground.

The implication is that I also need to learn about antennas in addition to all the background on radios, bands, frequencies, etc.  It is looking like there is a huge challenge in just getting to the point where I set up my first radio and start listening.

Geek, I hear ya man...I was in a similar place to where you are right about now...and I JUST got my General in October of 2012...

Just relax, Luck, Ray and Gil can help you figure out a starting point...you're in good hands. You DO NOT have to learn everything at once!

...but remember, you were absolutely right, communications is a critical need once you have shelter, water, food, and security...along with the importance of communicating with loved ones & gaining outside information - passing communication traffic for others will be a negotiable capability. It will make you an important key member of a community...

You simply have to figure out if the pain of gaining the knowledge and working through some logistics, is worth the payoff once you attain a level of proficiency - for you.

You can make this as complicated and thorough, or as simplistic and basic as YOU want.

Plus, like anything worth doing, once you start learning/committing, it really isn't that complicated or difficult.

...good luck!

[Geek]

It is starting to sound like just getting reliable communicaions for a 30 mile distance will be like learning to play poker.  Get 2 radios and antennas (one for each end), see if they work.  If they don't, start replacing stuff until you trip over the right combination of stuff to successfully communicate.

[RadioRay]

Hi Geek,

I've been doing a little analysis using coverage plot software to a randomly selected part of NJ and this might just make it easier to do your 'math' in choosing systems.  In it I compare two systems with basically identical physical installation, BUT one is at 148MHz - the so called "2 meter band" and the other is in the 28 MHz "10 meter band".

Antenna:  At 25 feet - (6 dB gain) - for transmit near Elizabeth, NJ and for any receive site.
Power:     100 Watts //Note: the power does not matter as much as antenna height //

Here are the coverage plots side-by side.



As a PRACTICAL matter, it's much easier to install a '2 meter' system because everything can be 6 times smaller.  This is especially important if you install equipment into a car.   The 2 meter band also has a TON of 'repeaters' which greatly extend your range, allow you to communicate with many other hams, is the PRIME band for emergency coordination activities and the radios also usually let you listen to the national weather service broadcasts - direct.  - should you so choose, a 2 meter radio ia a great source of local intel.  The same is NOT true with 10 meters. On my little car, I use a "mag-mount" antenna and a 25 Watt radio. I can reach our local 'repeater 30 miles away, with soe shaded (no contact) spots, based upon terrain.

COVERAGE will be better in the "10 meter" portion because of the longer wavelength, because it tends to fill-in to valleys and other 'shadded areas' which the hight '2 meter band' will not fill-in. In other words, behind low hills, some buildings and etc. the 10 meter band will give you better coverage BUT the best will be 102" tall on a car, which is a pain unless you drive a truck.  BOTH of these bands (and more) are available to you with if you get your Technician license, which you could do with a week of casual study and our help.

My suggestion:  Go to the "radiomobile" site http://www.ve2dbe.com/rmonline.html and put in your exact location, then use the frequency/height and etc. that you think you can deal with.  This software is actually rather accurate. If you like, I can do this for you, as it's a little bit of a pain to use.

>>>=====>  This does NOT work for skywave radio propagation, like the NVIS and other modes we talk about.  There are other software tools for that.


Enjoy -

de RadioRay ..._ ._

[WA4STO]

It is starting to sound like just getting reliable communicaions for a 30 mile distance will be like learning to play poker.  Get 2 radios and antennas (one for each end), see if they work.  If they don't, start replacing stuff until you trip over the right combination of stuff to successfully communicate.

I initially wanted to retort to this by saying "no, no, no, that's a horrible way to have to do it". 

Then it dawned on me that it's the very way that I did things -- and CONTINUE to do things, 43 years later!

It's kinda like life.  Once you find out that there's no manual to help you along, you start taking suggestions from whoever you can find to suggest ideas on what will "definitely work".  At least according to THEIR experience.  YMDefinitelyWILLV!

From what I understand of your communications needs at present, I'd like to offer the following:

While most amateur radio operators traditionally want to throw up an antenna and see who they can work, you're in a different situation.  You want to overcome the extremely difficult challenge of communicating with ONE other person, who happens to be in a miserable place, communications - wise.

I believe that the likely outcome of buying a couple of radios and  realizing that they can't overcome that 30 mile distance, will cause you to give up on amateur radio.  I've seen that happen to a LOT of newcomers.

My recommendation would be to do as White Tiger did and purchase a relatively inexpensive older HF radio.  He bought a Ten-Tec which is serving him very well. 

If you look at his postings here, you'll notice that he's been successful at making contacts, some VERY far away and he's having fun. 

Is he making contact with that elusive 30-miles-away crowd?  Not yet, maybe, but he's been clever enough to get VHF equipment that will do exactly that, but mostly because he's in an urban area with tons of local repeaters.  He's also maximizing his enjoyment of ham radio (that is, he's set his rifle sighting differently) so that he's not likely to give up any time soon.

There are other, more clever ways to accomplish the goal, provided that you're willing to utilize the extreme flexibility that's built into ham radio.

For example, I'm fond of (and everybody here's getting tired of hearing me yap about) the digital modes, some of which can readily overcome the 30 miles problem with ease.

How's that?

Well,  let's take one of my 'local' prepper friends.   He's 15 miles away and doesn't have diddly for antennas, so he and I can't transfer information.  At least not in the traditional way.  But we could easily fix the problem by utilizing other relay points that we can BOTH hear.  Propagation on 40 meters, for example, is such that we can both work a number of emergency power - equipped, non-internet-based WINMOR and WINLINK system nodes. 

So even though he (point A) can't reach me (point B), he can utilize the automatic features of (points C, D, or E) to get his messages to me and oh, by the way, the rest of the world as well.

An excellent, real-time  example of this is the storm up in New England.  I can't readily reach the WINMOR node in Owls Head Maine, so as to read the weather - related bulletins that they're sending out.  But those bulletins reach me just fine, since they are all relayed, error-free, via the system, on an automated basis.

Yah, it's all a learning experience.   You've correctly dubbed it a 'challenge'.  But hang in there.  Keep asking questions.  You WILL get it all figured out.

Best 73

Luck, WA4STO
in Wilber Nebraska

[Geek]

Hi Geek,

I've been doing a little analysis using coverage plot software to a randomly selected part of NJ and this might just make it easier to do your 'math' in choosing systems.  In it I compare two systems with basically identical physical installation, BUT one is at 148MHz - the so called "2 meter band" and the other is in the 28 MHz "10 meter band".

Antenna:  At 25 feet - (6 dB gain) - for transmit near Elizabeth, NJ and for any receive site.
Power:     100 Watts //Note: the power does not matter as much as antenna height //

Here are the coverage plots side-by side.



As a PRACTICAL matter, it's much easier to install a '2 meter' system because everything can be 6 times smaller.  This is especially important if you install equipment into a car.   The 2 meter band also has a TON of 'repeaters' which greatly extend your range, allow you to communicate with many other hams, is the PRIME band for emergency coordination activities and the radios also usually let you listen to the national weather service broadcasts - direct.  - should you so choose, a 2 meter radio ia a great source of local intel.  The same is NOT true with 10 meters. On my little car, I use a "mag-mount" antenna and a 25 Watt radio. I can reach our local 'repeater 30 miles away, with soe shaded (no contact) spots, based upon terrain.

COVERAGE will be better in the "10 meter" portion because of the longer wavelength, because it tends to fill-in to valleys and other 'shadded areas' which the hight '2 meter band' will not fill-in. In other words, behind low hills, some buildings and etc. the 10 meter band will give you better coverage BUT the best will be 102" tall on a car, which is a pain unless you drive a truck.  BOTH of these bands (and more) are available to you with if you get your Technician license, which you could do with a week of casual study and our help.

My suggestion:  Go to the "radiomobile" site http://www.ve2dbe.com/rmonline. and put in your exact location, then use the frequency/height and etc. that you think you can deal with.  This software is actually rather accurate. If you like, I can do this for you, as it's a little bit of a pain to use.

>>>=====>  This does NOT work for skywave radio propagation, like the NVIS and other modes we talk about.  There are other software tools for that.


Enjoy -

de RadioRay ..._ ._

This looks like exactly what I need but the link is not working.