Anyone so new they don't even have a radio yet?

[White Tiger]

Hi all,

I am very new to the whole radio business and would like to know more about the equipment.  I am in Kansas and if SHTF, I would like to be able to communicate, or at least hear, what is happening around the country.  I won't say my resources are unlimited but I can afford to purchase good equipment.  I am just not sure what I should be looking at.  I would like to be able to keep it somewhat disguised, as far as antenna, but otherwise not to worried about it.

Im pretty new at this myself, just got my license in October, but I wanted you to know no one is ignoring you. The veterans on this board will probably get back to you tomorrow. They enjoy helping new folks out - I will ask a couple of the basics to get an idea of your current condition? First, do you currently have a license? It is a requirement, but more than that, it gets you to minimum level of proficiency- and it makes you aware of the risks of operating. Personally, I initially intended to go "pirate" without a license, I was encouraged to check into a bit more thoroughly...good thing too...I am part of a group of friends & family that recent.y went through a few storms that saw a number of us cut off from each other. We decided we would change that if we could. After some discussions with someone who offered to help me accomplish the goals I set out for myself, it was decided that I needed a layered approach. Communications with a group over 400 miles away and communication with a local group. Sounds similar to what you're asking - but I don't want to assume - so, is this what you had in mind?

You mentioned the term HT - which sounds like you may have some understanding of radio already? Hope my questions don't seem rudimentary, or assume you know less than you do - just need a starting point.

What I settled on was HF (high frequency) operation, and with some basic configuration of a very simple antenna - and I think pretty stealth. I do have a VHF radio and antenna for close-in communication (5-200 miles depending on utilizing repeaters), but it has limitations, if the towers go down, or power is lost, the repeaters blink off and I would be left with a 5-10 mile range. near enough for 2 or 3 of the other 4 households, but not enough. After many conversations I have mothballed the plan to rely on 2m/VHF and go with the advice of a few here who suggested a technique to manipulate one of the four HF bands my antenna covers. I am running fiberglass poles which will be affixed (zip tied) to the side of a palm tree, up to about 32'. This should allow me some "stealth" and all the local contact (0-300 miles) I need on a very reliable band (80m) and as far away as Europe, the Caribbean, and California on the other bands (40m, 20m, 15m).

The risk is this - High Frequency = High Voltage. Learn what you can - it isn't hard - but investigate.

In my current situation, bugging out is not an option so mobility is not necessarily important.  But I would like to be able to use handhelds as well as a base.  So go ahead, start blasting away with questions or comments.  I will do my best to keep up!  LOL!

It's good that you have a general understanding of the type of preparedness you will be committing to. It will help narrow the decisions somewhat.

What is the purpose of the handhelds? Do you envision utilizing them for patrols, hunting, close contact? I have a couple in my gear, but they are "just in case" or after thoughts, not something I will expect to rely on. Plus, HT's are 2m VHF/UHF and are limited by line of site (unless you can reach a repeater...and we're back to the starting point regarding power and reliability). Not to mention, I find 2m difficult because you have to dial a specific tone to reach a repeater, you have to know what offset you're operating on, and it has just seemed NOT user friendly).

If you do not have a license, the tests may seem difficult, but they're really not. They require some study, but they give you access to the actual question pool that the FCC uses for the tests. There are ways to study for it to make sure you pass - Gil (the owner of this website) has some technical expertise with electronics/software, but he studied and passed all 3 tests at one sitting! I studied for about 45-60 days and passed 2 out of the 3 levels of the tests (Technician, General, Amateur Extra) and came away with a General license...and I am probably the LEAST technical guy on this board!

I'll let you answer some of these to get us more familiar with your current condition and level of enthusiasm...and maybe that will help some of the veterans with some of the specifics...

Like we just suggested to Geek (also a new member), you made the right decision - communications MUST be on everyone's list of preparedness skills - so were glad you're here, and glad to help however we can!

[Geek]

I did not try to enter latitude and longitude.  It came up with a world map centered on the west coast of Africa.  By moving the cursor and the magnification like using a Mapquest map I was able to center the location right on my house, but it took a bunch of iterations of move cursor, change magnification, repeat until I got it in the right spot.  Do that once and then save the location.  You'll never have to do it again unless you want to define another location.

Thanks Geek, I'll give it a try!

Letr me know how this works for you.  I was very pleased with my results and I'd like to know if this works for others.

[Geek]

I have a question about the reliability of repeaters.  I found a directory of repeaters online and there are a bunch of them in the area.  This is great for day to day, but I am curious how reliable they might be in an emergency.  Do they typically have power backups?  If so, how long might they remain active?  Is there any information available about repeater up times?  For instance, this area was affected by Hurricane Sandy.  If I want to know which repeaters stayed up and which ones went down, would there be an easy way to find out?

[cockpitbob]

Repeaters are owned by clubs and private individuals.  I'm not aware of any standards or requirements for backup power, so I think it all depends on the owner.  Some repeaters are used by the local emergency communications  or weather spotter (Skywarn) groups.  I would guess those repeaters are more likely to have backup power, but not guaranteed.

The larger clubs that own repeaters have web sites that may describe (brag about) their repeaters.

[Tadpoe62]

Hi White Tiger,

Sorry if I gave the impression I had any knowledge of radios.  I have just started reading about it (VHF, UHF, etc) but honestly most of it is greek to me.  I have not obtained a license but know that I should and am not turned off by studying for a test at any of the three levels.  And I guess that it where my questions should begin. 

First, my concern is the collapse of our dollar, our government and all the extreme outcomes that could come with that.  Particularly, power grid and other infrastructures to include communications.  I am preparing my food, water, and alternative power sources but I need to be able to listen into what is happening around the country as well as communicate with others.  My understanding is HAM radio is the best way to go.  Therefore, I need to learn more and obtain the equipment.  And I want to get started quickly, before anything starts happening and resources dry up.  The handhelds are for hunting and possibly patrol circumstances if warranted but mainly for hunting. 

Where I am located, I "assume" I can set up whatever is necessary to accomplish my needs.  I live in the country, on top of a hill, with no tree or tower interference.  I know there will be height restrictions for towers, but then I also understand I may need it to be stealth depending on the circumstances as well so I am open to suggestions.  I do not have any high voltage wires near my house.  My feed is underground from the transformer which is a good 150' from my house. I guess what I am saying is, I am up for covert type antennas or whatever someone may suggest but I want solid, reliable equipment.   

If anyone knows someone in my area (Topeka), I would be glad to meet up and work with a mentor.  I certainly want to learn the proper etiquettes and be respectful of others more knowledgeable.  Hope that helps you and the experts figure out where I am coming from and what I am looking for!!

Thanks in advance!

[White Tiger]

Hi White Tiger,

Sorry if I gave the impression I had any knowledge of radios.  I have just started reading about it (VHF, UHF, etc) but honestly most of it is greek to me.  I have not obtained a license but know that I should and am not turned off by studying for a test at any of the three levels.  And I guess that it where my questions should begin.

The way I was encuraged to learn/study was to check out www.hamtestonline.com (there many others) - they have the exact question pool that the FCC utilizes for the test. You can buy a study guide sponsored by ARRL (which also has a CD and test questions, just make sure you get the correct year of publishing). If you ise the website I listed above, you can also use it with whatever method works best for you - read until you feel ready to test...then take a practice test. Afterwards you can study the specific questions you missed and...take another practice test....

...or (this might make some shudder) you can do what I did...take practice test after practice test until I was scoring in the mid 80% range...then I scheduled a test with a local Volunteer Examiner (usually on a Saturday at a local Library, Church, fire station, radio club). You can find a testing facility by visiting http://www.arrl.org - from the website - next test date and location:

04/13/2013 | Topeka KS 66604-1304
Sponsor: KVARC
Location: Topeka & Shawnee County Public Library
Time: 2:00 PM (Walk-ins allowed)

As for the bands you are considering (VHF/UHF) listening to what you're looking for - you may want to keep ALL your options open. Range, type of desired communication, feed line loss, and versatility, will be important - so what have you read about HF? I actually thought VHF/UHF would be easier to learn than HF...man did I have it backwards! I found the equipment for the two similrly priced, while 2m/VHF/UHF operation was a bit more complicated. Besides, I wanted to be able to he foreign broadcast news - as well as the local/domestic traffic...that is why I selected HF.

First, my concern is the collapse of our dollar, our government and all the extreme outcomes that could come with that.  Particularly, power grid and other infrastructures to include communications.  I am preparing my food, water, and alternative power sources but I need to be able to listen into what is happening around the country as well as communicate with others.  My understanding is HAM radio is the best way to go.  Therefore, I need to learn more and obtain the equipment.  And I want to get started quickly, before anything starts happening and resources dry up.  The handhelds are for hunting and possibly patrol circumstances if warranted but mainly for hunting.

I hear you - and I started for similar reasons maybe with different actual motivation (worried about all you listed PLUS due to the already weakened economy; the very real fear that I could lose my job through no fault of my own...I didn't, but it was first-person-personal, I can tell you that).

While things seem to be ramping up - it might take some time for the economy to collapse...while it isn't optimal...what we are seeing play out in the domestic & global financial markets is actually buying us some time....how much is anyone's guess. It was my thinking that whatever asset I bought today, it would be a bargain as time wore on. I was not wrong, I bought food first, today the same amount of food I started buying two years ago is 20% more expensive...you apply that same math to any other priority...except firearms and ammo - all of its higher because someone is artificially manipulating the buyers/market, and that can be said of even "commodity" items today. The prices for things we live on (and in) are considered too volatile to be included in the governments statistical analysis of economic indicators...'nuff said...

Sounds like you have your priorities right - don't think that's not a big deal, folks spend alot of time arguing should they "leave the gun, or pack the canollis" ( hint, always pack the canollis first)...so from a Prepper perspective - you're on the right track!

Where I am located, I "assume" I can set up whatever is necessary to accomplish my needs.  I live in the country, on top of a hill, with no tree or tower interference.  I know there will be height restrictions for towers, but then I also understand I may need it to be stealth depending on the circumstances as well so I am open to suggestions.  I do not have any high voltage wires near my house.  My feed is underground from the transformer which is a good 150' from my house. I guess what I am saying is, I am up for covert type antennas or whatever someone may suggest but I want solid, reliable equipment.

from a technical aspect, I am really lacking in knowledge...I can tell you what I did...but that may not be what is best for you. I think on this point folks like WA4STO, Gil, cockpitbob, KC9TNH, RadioRay, RayBiker (just to name a few) would do a better job directing you on this...and ttabs has an excellent thread on his solar power system he set up. He says he's new too, but he is a wealth of information on radio, solar/battery power.

For me, it was whatever I could get the most "bang for the buck" - reliably - and for the long haul. It had to fit the criteria of long and local communication, and my antenna had to be simple and as stealth as possible. My shack is about 120' from my antenna - and my feedline needed to be a bit longer than it was...and since the original configuration it is about to go through a reset...but EVERYTHING I wanted/needed prior to buying is EXACTLY what I have - I wouldn't change anything (well, I'd ADD to what I have, but the base set-up would remain the same).

That came from listening to one veteran ham and getting his input (i.e., pestering him to death with questions)...but this forum contributed a LOT to my understanding. Gil has been a big help to my understanding...including offering to help me with some major soldering (which turned out not to be necessary).

There's a lot of experience on this board. I think they should be the one who answer this question.

If anyone knows someone in my area (Topeka), I would be glad to meet up and work with a mentor.  I certainly want to learn the proper etiquettes and be respectful of others more knowledgeable.  Hope that helps you and the experts figure out where I am coming from and what I am looking for!!

Hmmm...is Topeka anywhere near Wilbur, Nebraska...? If so you have one heck of a mentor/Elmer right up the road...he got me this far...

Thanks in advance!

We're all glad you're here, you're taking the right course of action!

[WA4STO]

Where I am located, I "assume" I can set up whatever is necessary to accomplish my needs.

Hi Tadpoe.  And a very warm welcome to the group.  We're here to help you.

Your assumption is correct; you CAN set up whatever is necessary.  The only thing I see lacking in your planning at this moment in time is a firm understanding of who you will need to communicate with and -- more importantly -- what distance they are from you.

That distance is critical since there is no one setup that will be exactly right for all distances.  For example, if "hunting" is your concern, that implies that you'll want to communicate via voice (there are MANY other modes...) with someone VERY close by.  Which would probably translate into a set of small hand-held radios (one for each of you) that operate in the VHF or UHF regions.

That is way different from the need to communicate to another BOL or compound located maybe 30 miles away, or around the county, country, or planet. 

Those latter scenarios are what I'm involved with; I operate a digital relay station that transfers text and files to other licensed radio amateurs all around the State (I'm north of you, into Nebraska), Region, and country.  The radios, in my case, are different, as are the antennas.  White Tiger has equipped himself for both local and long-distance and he chose to do so by  purchasing two different kinds of equipment, used, at a fraction of the new price.  Plenty of stuff available and we can assist you with that as well.

Looks like you've got the testing and licensing part well in hand, so let me leave you with my standard mantra:

"We provide you with ALL of the questions and ALL of the answers BEFOREHAND to the two simple tests that you will want to take.  Unless you wish to, there is no need to 'study'.  Just memorize the correct answers, go take the tests, and you're done.  At that point, we give you access to millions and millions of frequencies, all up and down the radio spectrum, and dozens of transmission modes that will allow you to get your messages from point A to point B, often by way of points C, D, and E -- all automatically, error-corrected, and not readable by the public, the media, or nosy third parties".

In short, we want you to succeed, we want you to have a blast, and we're willing to help you get there.

Best 73

Luck, WA4STO
in Wilber, Nebraska
http://www.qrz.com/db/wa4sto

The short distance stuff is so simple, that I'm wondering if you might not want to get into discussions with us (here) about how best to accomplish the long-distance stuff.

[Tadpoe62]

WA4STO,

You're absolutely correct about the hunting and handhelds.  That I got a grip on.  My interest is in being able to communicate with guys/gals around the area and country.  I want to be able to know what is going on around the country even if I can't do anything about it.  As I mentioned in my first post.  I know nothing about this stuff and honestly don't want to spend the time studying all the various brands, models, combos, etc.  I am looking for someone to help me get a good, solid setup and help me learn how to best utilize it.  Without sounding like a complete paranoid, I would prefer to be able to keep people from being able to recognize what I am doing unless they are familiar with the equipment (i.e. retractable antenna when not in use, or some easy way to camouflage that it's a radio antenna). 

I guess I should ask, what is the difference between using voice (which is what I picture radio to be) and the "text and files" that you refer to.  Is the text more like typed messaging (actual text messaging) or more like Morse?  I am assuming from your post the two require different equipment.  In your opinion, given my concerns, should I be looking at one vs the other or both?

I have no problem with the memorization and testing, hell, that's how I got through school...LOL!  But I do want to learn how to get the most out of my equipment and not tread into areas I don't belong.  I want to learn the etiquette and protocols!  I appreciate you offer and being as how we're only 2 - 3 hours apart I would love to get together sometime as we move forward.  I actually have some relatives not far from you.

Thanks!

Tadpoe62

[WA4STO]

My interest is in being able to communicate with guys/gals around the area and country.  I want to be able to know what is going on around the country even if I can't do anything about it.

Good goal.  This brings up one of the primary reasons for going at it on a licensed vs. unlicensed basis.  If unlicensed, you won't be able to communicate with those who have the info you need.  They simply won't do it.  But once licensed, you'll be able to query the digital networks so as to ask if the folks there are noticing any U.N. blue helmets, whether martial law has been imposed, etc.

The point being that you will have the ability to check with specific areas of the country and/or world, rather than just listening and hoping that you'll hear some tidbit of info. 

  As I mentioned in my first post.  I know nothing about this stuff and honestly don't want to spend the time studying all the various brands, models, combos, etc.  I am looking for someone to help me get a good, solid setup and help me learn how to best utilize it.

Sounds very reasonable.  Actually, the brands and models aren't as important as you might otherwise think.  Let's take White Tiger's efforts as an example.  He didn't have much of a clue either.  None of us do when starting out.  In his case, it was more a matter of trying to find something on Ebay, perhaps, that would do what he wanted without breaking his bank.

He was very successful.  At this point, he's attempting to push the envelope even further, by utilizing 1980s equipment with today's technically-astute modes and protocols.  And ya know what?  I think he's going to succeed.  Watch what happens, right here.

Without sounding like a complete paranoid, I would prefer to be able to keep people from being able to recognize what I am doing unless they are familiar with the equipment (i.e. retractable antenna when not in use, or some easy way to camouflage that it's a radio antenna). 

No problem.  We can use my situation as a great example, perhaps, in that I'm moving in a couple of weeks and am not particularly interested in having the neighbors know what's up.  Uh, not to sound paranoid myself, but no less than THREE of my new neighbors are sheriff's deputies. 

So I'm selling off my nine band vertical that looks way too techy and maybe way too *errorist in nature.  Instead, I'm putting up a single wire.  That's also what I'm going to recommend for your three acres on the hill.  More on that as we go along.

I guess I should ask, what is the difference between using voice (which is what I picture radio to be) and the "text and files" that you refer to.  Is the text more like typed messaging (actual text messaging) or more like Morse?  I am assuming from your post the two require different equipment.  In your opinion, given my concerns, should I be looking at one vs the other or both?

Excellent question.  And I'll admit right up front that I'm pretty 'rabid' about my opinions on this topic.  But having said that, here goes; the others here can avert their eyes, they've heard it all before:

Perfectly understandable that you'd equate 'radio' with 'voice'.  The vast majority of licensed radio amateurs enjoy voice modes.  I don't.  The reasons for that are as follows:

1.  I'm not interested in my three above-mentioned neighbors hearing what I'm saying.  Ditto for the media, which often takes things WAY out of context.  So if I'm participating in a communications test that deals with the  providing of evacuation comms around a nuclear power plant, I don't want the deputies telling their boss that a nuke plant is erupting in the next county over. 

By using voice, it's extremely unlikely that you're going to be able to encrypt it.  But if you're using keyboard modes, such as WINMOR, or one of the several other modes that 'squishes' the text before sending it, the media won't get the wrong idea.  In fact, they won't get ANY idea.

2.   If you're using voice, it's extremely likely that what happens from the time you push your mike button to the time that the guy on the other end of your conversation interprets it will result in the wrong thing being communicated.  What goes in isn't what goes out.  Was that "eight units of O positive blood needed ASAP" or was it "eighty units of A negative in stock at present" ?  You get the idea. 

By using the error-corrected digital modes, that problem doesn't exist.  What's sent is what's got.  Guaranteed.

3.  Digital modes frequently utilize the networking approach.  This is important because if your goal is to get your message to Fresno from Topeka, you'll very likely end up sending it to the data node that you CAN hear, which might be in, say, Omaha.  The network approach has things pre-established, such that messages for Fresno, once received in Omaha, are switched to Denver, perhaps, on their way to Fresno.  All automatically, all error-corrected, all media-proof, all without any sign of the internet.  See the difference now?

73 for now.  Keep the questions coming.   We all learn from them.

Luck, WA4STO

[gil]

I guess I should ask, what is the difference between using voice (which is what I picture radio to be) and the "text and files" that you refer to.  Is the text more like typed messaging (actual text messaging) or more like Morse?

Hello. There is the privacy issue mentioned by Luke, though anyone who can do some research on the Internet can find out how to decode a digital mode. Simply downloading a program like Fldigi allows to decode many digital modes. Real encryption is illegal on Ham bands. It is peculiar, because encryption is not illegal on the internet. Go figure.. Anyway, it is also a matter of efficiency. Digital modes are more efficient than voice, meaning that you get more range for the same power. Personally, I am not a fan of digital modes because they require more gear, which means more stuff to carry, more batteries to charge. I believe in a real national emergency there would be few stations operating digital. I am not part of any emcom group, so basically, in it for myself, friends and family, none of whom are Hams.

My favorite mode is sort of a digital mode though, and that is CW, Morse code. You can do amazing things with Morse code that wouldn't work any other way. Last week I had a 830 miles QSO using 100mW! A tenth of a Watt! It takes a long time to learn (at least it did for me), but brings great rewards. I have a Rock-Mite radio I built that fits in an Altoids mints box and reliably gets me heard 600 to 1300 miles away. You can't do so much with so little using voice or a digital mode. A small CW transceiver will run 30Hrs on a few AA batteries..

If you want to know what's going on in the country, get a short wave receiver, or make sure the Ham radio you buy allows listening to SW. For example the Elecraft KX1 allows SW listening, even though it is a Morse code radio only. Most radios these days allow listening outside of the Ham bands.

Gil.

[Tadpoe62]

Hi Gil,

Thanks for the input.  I am always open to opinions and ideas from everyone as I get started in a new adventure.  Especially if they've been at it awhile.  I wondered if Morse was still utilized much.  Never studied it much but it does seem a little daunting to learn.  More so with your comment about taking quite awhile to learn. 

Let me ask some questions, for clarification, do you agree that digital is more secure and better suited for my purposes?  Whether starting with WA4STO's setup or one like yours, I could learn to migrate between both correct?  Additionally, do you believe the Morse (CW?) is more secure than the digital setup of WA4STO?  Is it because fewer people use it?  Please elaborate a little more.

Thanks to both of you guys.  I am already starting to figure out I came to the right place to learn.

Tadpoe62

[gil]

Hello,

I would say digital is more secure than Morse. Someone could record a Morse communication and play it back many times to finally decode it. Digital works fine but requires more gear and knowledge. The chances of being listened to are slim on Ham frequencies already... Morse, even less, and digital, extremely unlikely. I wouldn't worry about it. Start with voice modes for their simplicity. Once you understand more about modes, operating, propagation and antennas, try Morse or digital, or both. You will most likely use the same equipment anyway.. I love Morse because for me, it is the essence and origins of radio. To this day, nothing beats the simplicity of it and of the radios used. It can also be used with a flashlight, banging on something, touching someone's arm, blinking your eyes, the possibilities are endless.

Gil.

[Geek]

I now have study materials and I am working through them.  The materials say that repeaters receive on one frequency and retransmit on another.  If I am trying to communicate with someone through a repeater am I switching back and forth between frequencies?  It seems cumbersome unless there is some aspect of this I don't know about.

[gil]

am I switching back and forth between frequencies?

No, the radio does that for you automatically.

Gil.

[White Tiger]

I now have study materials and I am working through them.  The materials say that repeaters receive on one frequency and retransmit on another.  If I am trying to communicate with someone through a repeater am I switching back and forth between frequencies?  It seems cumbersome unless there is some aspect of this I don't know about.

Hence, you have run into one of the reasons I don't like and have lost interest in 2m/VHF/UHF. I prefer the simple binary operation on HF

Some HF (High Frequency) radios allow for the ability to "split" TX/RX to transmit on one frequency while listening/searching up the dial for another contact/QSO...but that is mostly used for contestors....fortunately I haven't run into a lot of them - at least not as far as I know!